12-Apr-2010 - Dungeoneering Skill!

[qeltar]

Slaying dinosaurs and making armor out of them is the best thing about Dung IMO =) And how long does it really take to make some gear? Not very long. Can you really tell me you can kill a boss without dying and without any gear?

It's very common to play a whole level and never see a mastyx worth hunting for its hides.

[Hajutze]

I rarelly get a gear. I just wear the drops (even if they are ranged - the negative attack is not so bad considering the good def) and the other gold (if I spend it) goes for food. 70+ prayer + a full inv of food is enough for any solo boss (except the pickaxe dude, he is horrible).

[Rageman192]

Slaying dinosaurs and making armor out of them is the best thing about Dung IMO =) And how long does it really take to make some gear? Not very long. Can you really tell me you can kill a boss without dying and without any gear?

 

Many solo'ers do just that.

 

Gear = armor and weapons, right?

 

I doubt anyone is going to kick say, a Bulwark Beast to death...

[mario_sunny]

Slaying dinosaurs and making armor out of them is the best thing about Dung IMO =) And how long does it really take to make some gear? Not very long. Can you really tell me you can kill a boss without dying and without any gear?

 

Many solo'ers do just that.

 

Gear = armor and weapons, right?

 

I doubt anyone is going to kick say, a Bulwark Beast to death...

 

Actually I had a 5 man team do that three days ago. Of course, we had to remove its armor first, but after that we literally kicked it to death. We figured we didn't need weapons since we were all 125+.

[Dragonlordjl]

And so, last night I was fighting Shadowforger in a five man 5:5 team. He used his spores attack and took me from 950+ hp to 0 before I had time to eat a single piece of food. For that one completely bogus death, I discovered when we beat the boss that I lost 15% exp. That's absurd. The higher the team difficulty, the lower your death penalty should be. :angry:

[Riptide Mage]

And so, last night I was fighting Shadowforger in a five man 5:5 team. He used his spores attack and took me from 950+ hp to 0 before I had time to eat a single piece of food. For that one completely bogus death, I discovered when we beat the boss that I lost 15% exp. That's absurd. The higher the team difficulty, the lower your death penalty should be. :angry:

 

Its supposed to be a challenge. The total exp you will gain from that floor is far larger than if you had been doing it solo, so of course it should be more difficult. Without an adequate risk there would not be as high a reward.

[Golvellius]

Maging is necessary for the higher level warriors and is useful for a couple of bosses, but that's about it. Still, at least with a high spell and a good staff you can do some serious damage.

 

The problem with ranging is that they beefed up all the melee weapon strengths and the ranged bow accuracies, but not the ranged strengths. Promethium arrows are weaker than iron bolts -- who thought that one up? It doesn't really matter if ranging is slightly more accurate than meleeing when the damage is less than half. This really needs fixing.

 

Short bow on rapid fires twice in the time one crossbow/spears goes off.

Its the only way to use range in the dungeon.

Long bow would only be good if your in full melee armour, but why you would want to range like that is.... :huh:

[Blutters]

Just got Catalytic Celestial in a duo, lol. Rarely do I get anything worth anything from duos. Unfortunately, neither of us could us it anyway, so it went to waste...

I found it peculiar that it said "You must have a Magic level of 99 or higher to wield this item." or something along those lines.

 

EDIT:

Has anyone else noticed that you get rewarded more (as far as drops go) for attacking monsters with their triangle weakness?

[NukeMarine]

Much of the nifty new gear they put in Dungeoneering is also going to waste because of the thoughtless binding system.

 

Yesterday when playing with two others I got a primal plateskirt. Okay, it looks neat, but what am I going to do with it? It's cool but has half the stats of a promethium platebody, and I need my weapon. So it goes to waste.

 

Same with most of the other primal drops and a lot of the other fancy stuff. I like maging but if I want to do it I have to either do it with no gear or waste time on every floor making robes and a staff. It's usually not worth it: when I solo a floor takes 20 minutes, and in groups everyone is in a big hurry.

 

Who is ever going to use a guardian ward or absorption boots or a fireburst defender for more than 15 minutes?

 

It's because of this that I'm suggesting they allow players to bind all the items they want, but they get an XP penalty equal to the sum of the Tier levels of the equipment (or maybe a fraction of that if it's small item like a glove or helm). It replicates the XP loss when one does a complexity level 1 through 3. A level 50 player will bind a weapon and a chest, but will he want to bind that Tier 11 skirt for an 11% penalty on XP? Maybe, maybe not. If they allowed that, they could also give tier levels to herb seeds and charms allow players to bind up to five of them. Would you bind 5 crimson charms or 5 featherfoils for a 7% penalty?

 

Or Jagex can just keep it as it is, and players get a primal glove drop that they just as quickly drop.

[helring]

I would kind of prefer like 3 binding "loadouts" for lack of a better term, You can bind items to them and then choose one at the beginning of game. You could bind spear and plate for solo, maybe a 2h and primal skirt for groups, ranged or mage option etc.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I can understand that jagex doesn't want us binding a full set of armor.

Removes the need for mining/smithing to make your own armors during the dungeon.

 

But you're limited to binding customization if you can only bind 2 items. Almost everybody is just going to go with a spear and platebody.

would be nice if we had more armor/weapon customization on each individual item we bound.

 

IE the possibility of upgrading/enchanting our spears/platebodies/etc.

 

oh and we definitely need to be allowed to bind more than 1 set of runes

i think the fact that jagex makes you pick a set of runes OR arrows kind of silly.

 

Mages get 1 stack of runes, not enough to cast ANY spells.

Rangers have to bind arrows, so they can't get any other bonus runes for gatestone/cure/vengeance purposes.

Melee has it best off, they get their weapon, armor, and a spare stack of runes for whatever purpose they need.

 

I think we should be able to bind 1 stack of arrows AND 1-4 stacks of runes.

[bedman]

Just 2 things for each class would be nice, but maybe a bit too easy.

That would mean:

 

Melee weapon and 1 armour piece

Ranged weapon + arrows and 1 armour piece

Magic staff + rune set and 1 armour piece

[qeltar]

It's because of this that I'm suggesting they allow players to bind all the items they want, but they get an XP penalty equal to the sum of the Tier levels of the equipment (or maybe a fraction of that if it's small item like a glove or helm). It replicates the XP loss when one does a complexity level 1 through 3. A level 50 player will bind a weapon and a chest, but will he want to bind that Tier 11 skirt for an 11% penalty on XP? Maybe, maybe not. If they allowed that, they could also give tier levels to herb seeds and charms allow players to bind up to five of them. Would you bind 5 crimson charms or 5 featherfoils for a 7% penalty?

That's a clever idea. So clever, in fact, that they'll never do it. ;)

 

I'd settle for something less idiotic than the current system. Which is basically "1 item to start, and then 2 items from when you actually understand the skill enough to train it, until basically forever for most players".

[Riptide Mage]

I think actually the knowledge base is wrong about these wards. I mean, +80 attack bonuses for a shield, that's too good...

 

On the spear being the best overall: I guess like others have said that it's mostly for solo. I can imagine that a celestial staff (+30% magic attack and hopefully damage too?) would for instance own in teams, same for a primal 2H or maul. You just need someone to back up your weakness.

Ranged however, is just weak IMO. I tried the tier 11 longbow with the tier 11 arrows, and still wasn't impressed at all. Longbow isn't fast at all, and dishing out only 190s at that speed is just poor. Maybe the tier 10 shortbow is better, but still. So far, it's only usefull at some bosses, but that's merely because of the weakness of the other styles, or some practical (running, or monsters having special attacks when you are closeby) issues.

 

 

Maging is necessary for the higher level warriors and is useful for a couple of bosses, but that's about it. Still, at least with a high spell and a good staff you can do some serious damage.

 

The problem with ranging is that they beefed up all the melee weapon strengths and the ranged bow accuracies, but not the ranged strengths. Promethium arrows are weaker than iron bolts -- who thought that one up? It doesn't really matter if ranging is slightly more accurate than meleeing when the damage is less than half. This really needs fixing.

 

Short bow on rapid fires twice in the time one crossbow/spears goes off.

Its the only way to use range in the dungeon.

Long bow would only be good if your in full melee armour, but why you would want to range like that is.... :huh:

 

I tried out both the t10 shortbow and t10 longbow and found that the +81 additional ranged attack made a huge difference on the longbow. Sure I fired slower, but I hit way more often, and lost fewer arrows (since I wasn't firing as many). The t11 longbow (does a short exist?) far outshone either t10 bow, I just wish I had had the herbs to poison the t11 arrows.

[Jabuli]

I'd like to see something like this:

 

level 1: bind 1 item + arrows/runes

level 50: bind 2 items

level 75: bind 3 items + 2 sets of arrows/runes

level 100: bind: 4 items

level 120: bind 5 items + 3 sets of arrows/runes

 

You could bind 2 or even 3 sets of the same arrows/runes if you wanted.

[Zachneap]

Imo boss drops should have a degrading bind. they stick with you for 3 dungeons before degrading into nothingness and unbinding themselves. all the while not counting towards your permabound items.

 

but they have the option permabind. so that in the event you want to keep one you can.

[Flyingjj]

You know what I just realized? Jagex released this skill with only like half of its content. What kind of a release is that? Sure they did it with summoning, but they thought that was good enough for quite some time, and did have followers up to like lvl 90. This skill stops like halfway through. I think it's ridiculous.

 

And sure, I know I'm being a little slow on the uptake with this, but whatever.

[firebird308]

You know what I just realized? Jagex released this skill with only like half of its content. What kind of a release is that? Sure they did it with summoning, but they thought that was good enough for quite some time, and did have followers up to like lvl 90. This skill stops like halfway through. I think it's ridiculous.

 

And sure, I know I'm being a little slow on the uptake with this, but whatever.

 

Which is part of why I'm waiting to start working on this quest. That, and waiting for the majority of the bugs and stuff to get ironed out. My willpower is weakening though. A lot of it is due to the thought of weeks of wasted Tears of Guthix that'd go towards this thing instead of something I'm actually working on. >_<

[Y2g2003]

Erm, why the hell would Jagex want to give less XP to people who bothered to go through the trouble of partying with other players? If you're soloing and find that you can't overcome some of the obstacles, the idea of getting aid is to get more XP out of your trip, instead of getting yourself penalised. And like both of you mentioned, getting a good group is hard. Jagex would be crazy if they think along the mentality of "you got help from people to open more rooms, therefore you shall get even lesser XP than what you would've gotten if you soloed the floor with those rooms left unlocked!".

 

Erm, for starters... I never suggested that players get less xp for being in groups. Read what I said. I said rewarded MORE for soloing. I also went into specifics as to what you should get bonuses for. Not to mention the fact that I also said I could live with greater penalties in solos, as long as the poential bonuses would be there. Fact is, soling is tougher in some ways. Accessing all the rooms, killing all monsters, and beating the boss without dieing should count for more then what it counts for now.

[qeltar]

BTW, just a warning about incomplete floors.

 

It seems that if you don't complete a floor you get partial XP but NO TOKENS. I am hoping this is an oversight, since it was never spelled out, and they've always been pretty clear on the XP-token 10-1 relationship.

[Riemis]

I currently have a fire staff and 125 death runes bound, so I only have to craft airs. I've also never ran out of deaths, and I noticed I got more bryll drops while maging O_o

[Obtaurian]

Imo boss drops should have a degrading bind. they stick with you for 3 dungeons before degrading into nothingness and unbinding themselves. all the while not counting towards your permabound items.

 

but they have the option permabind. so that in the event you want to keep one you can.

 

I'd like to see something like this:

 

level 1: bind 1 item + arrows/runes

level 50: bind 2 items

level 75: bind 3 items + 2 sets of arrows/runes

level 100: bind: 4 items

level 120: bind 5 items + 3 sets of arrows/runes

 

You could bind 2 or even 3 sets of the same arrows/runes if you wanted.

 

 

These are both great ideas, and ones that I've suggested on the RSOF with lukewarm support. <_<

[Myweponsg00d]

Imo boss drops should have a degrading bind. they stick with you for 3 dungeons before degrading into nothingness and unbinding themselves. all the while not counting towards your permabound items.

 

but they have the option permabind. so that in the event you want to keep one you can.

 

I'd like to see something like this:

 

level 1: bind 1 item + arrows/runes

level 50: bind 2 items

level 75: bind 3 items + 2 sets of arrows/runes

level 100: bind: 4 items

level 120: bind 5 items + 3 sets of arrows/runes

 

You could bind 2 or even 3 sets of the same arrows/runes if you wanted.

 

 

These are both great ideas, and ones that I've suggested on the RSOF with lukewarm support. <_<

 

I like the boss idea. It would be a lot more fun if I actually felt like I was getting a reward for killing each boss.

 

I still dont think we need to be able to bind more items though. If you start binding too many, that kind of destroys the point of the skill. Though, maybe this could be released in the future (like how blocking Slayer tasks was released later)

[Zepheras]

Erm, why the hell would Jagex want to give less XP to people who bothered to go through the trouble of partying with other players? If you're soloing and find that you can't overcome some of the obstacles, the idea of getting aid is to get more XP out of your trip, instead of getting yourself penalised. And like both of you mentioned, getting a good group is hard. Jagex would be crazy if they think along the mentality of "you got help from people to open more rooms, therefore you shall get even lesser XP than what you would've gotten if you soloed the floor with those rooms left unlocked!".

 

Erm, for starters... I never suggested that players get less xp for being in groups. Read what I said. I said rewarded MORE for soloing. I also went into specifics as to what you should get bonuses for. Not to mention the fact that I also said I could live with greater penalties in solos, as long as the poential bonuses would be there. Fact is, soling is tougher in some ways. Accessing all the rooms, killing all monsters, and beating the boss without dieing should count for more then what it counts for now.

 

Fact is, accessing all rooms is dependant on your skill levels. There isn't anything 'tough' about opening all rooms at all besides the pre-dungeoneering part of training your skills. Killing all monsters is a task that some people skip in order to finish the dungeon faster. Has the dungeon ever generated normal monsters so tough that killing them would be depleting resources for the boss? Not really.

 

The current XP system already rewards players for opening all rooms (13%), killing all monsters (10%), and penalties for death (equivalent of bonus for not dying). What's different is the base floor and prestige XP in a group VS solo for the same floor. If you're saying that group effort should get more than soloing but soloing should get more than what they're getting now......your personal ideal XP is not any better than another player's. To me, as long as the ratio of XP for say, solo VS duo isn't in the extremes of 1:10 or 9:10, it's more or less suitable.

 

My main gripe with the skill is the way xp is dealt. It's extremely annoying knowing that I can get more xp in a group then completeing a floor by myself. One would think that it would be the other way around....

 

I'm only replying because of the phrasing of this part of your post. Perhaps you want to explain your 'other way round', of which I'm thinking that it refers to the previous part where you say 'more xp in a group then completing a floor by myself'. There's no other way round than to read it as more xp completing a floor by yourself than in a group.

[Y2g2003]

Imo boss drops should have a degrading bind. they stick with you for 3 dungeons before degrading into nothingness and unbinding themselves. all the while not counting towards your permabound items.

 

but they have the option permabind. so that in the event you want to keep one you can.

 

These are both great ideas, and ones that I've suggested on the RSOF with lukewarm support. <_<

 

I like the boss idea. It would be a lot more fun if I actually felt like I was getting a reward for killing each boss.

 

I still dont think we need to be able to bind more items though. If you start binding too many, that kind of destroys the point of the skill. Though, maybe this could be released in the future (like how blocking Slayer tasks was released later)

 

I like the boss idea as well. It's kind of pointless to defeat a boss and get an item... only to either bind the item (losing an item you have) or lose it within minutes of getting it. Funny thing happened to me today. I soloed a Bulwark Beast and got the very same pickaxe that I went out of my way to make as an award (Katagon pickaxe). I thought to myself... "Wow, that was a real pointless reward".

 

Edit: To the post above... Opening all rooms isn't always easy. There are rooms that have skill requirements that you don't always meet (even with a potion, and in some cases you can't make a potion you need). In a group the chances of having someone having the skills to open the door are greater then it is when you are soloing. Which is the one point I was trying to make. A multiplier, or even an individual bonus, for soling would be nice. The requirements for the multiplier would have high requirements (literally 100% completion of the dungeon), but it'd be nice to know that if I put in the work... the work is worth more then what it is now. Groups seem to have much more of a benefit when they really shouldn't. Balancing that out though is easier said then done though. I guess I also need to take into consideration dungeon sizes.