Chaotic Rapier vs Longsword

[Lep]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

[Zaaps1]

But the Longsword CAN stab, so it's not like you're whipping with it.

[iRed]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

[Mecakoto]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

 

Ah I love this. Make a statement, post a video, then post a fact. To bad...

 

1) Rapier >>>>>>>> Longsword for ALL metal dragon tasks.

2) Metals are one of the few things that would have stab used, seeing as it's slash bonus is far better.

3) It's not even close to epic, considering how close the Rapier is behind it.

 

In short, The Chaotic Kiteshield has very, very little use overall, most of all with the CLS. The Defender > Chaotic Kiteshield in most cases for either weapon.

[stonewall337]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

 

Its 10% more but 25% slower.

 

And we already know that the guy in that video isn't all that smart or knowledgeable. He's using both bandos boots and DFS when he is praying melee and using super antifires.

[CallmeNice]

This thread is stupid, Honestly i don't even think you should post here unless you own a chaotic weapon. Most of this is just mindless speculation wrapped up in blotched mathematics. I just got a cls and i do not think it is a waste at all..

 

I was just soloing bandos today guy with rapier got maybe 2out of 10 kills againts me... i admire the speed but when that blade on my mighty longsword comes down even though it may be a second slower i can almost always expect it to shred my enemy.. DElivering a blow that is undoubtedly MORE ACCURATE AND POWERFUL than the CR And that is why i value CLS over rapier. I know at some point i am going to need rapier for slayer.. but right now CLS is the apple of my eye

 

When you think about it.. The only damn thing CR has over CLS is Speed THATS IT i see everyone saying based on if i monster had 0 def rapier is better.. What if a monster had 1000 def? woudld you really want to take that toothpick into battle?

 

Rapier is not doing [cabbage] my whip already cant do, And thats official..

 

This is staycw and i approve this message :grin:

[Mecakoto]

This thread is stupid, Honestly i don't even think you should post here unless you own a chaotic weapon. Most of this is just mindless speculation wrapped up in blotched mathematics. I just got a cls and i do not think it is a waste at all..

 

I was just soloing bandos today guy with rapier got maybe 2-10 kills... i admire the speed but when that blade on my mighty longsword comes down even though it may be a second slower i can almost always expect it to shred my enemy.. DElivering a blow that is undoubtedly MORE ACCURATE AND POWERFUL than the CR And that is why i value CLS over rapier. I know at some point i am going to need rapier for slayer.. but right now CLS is the apple of my eye

 

When you think about it.. The only damn thing CR has over rapier is Speed THATS IT i see everyone saying based on if i monster had 0 def rapier is better.. What if a monster had 1000 def? woudld you really want to take that toothpick into battle?

 

Rapier is not doing [cabbage] my whip already cant do, And thats official..

 

This is staycw and i approve this message :grin:

 

You shouldn't approve it, considering how [developmentally delayed]ed the message is.

 

Your whip can't hit 560 without prayer. The Rapier can.

 

One last thing: If I was up against a monster with 1000 def, I'd use the maul.

 

CLS is meh compared to the other 2.

[MstrMonopoly]

This thread is stupid, Honestly i don't even think you should post here unless you own a chaotic weapon. Most of this is just mindless speculation wrapped up in blotched mathematics. I just got a cls and i do not think it is a waste at all..

 

I was just soloing bandos today guy with rapier got maybe 2-10 kills... i admire the speed but when that blade on my mighty longsword comes down even though it may be a second slower i can almost always expect it to shred my enemy.. DElivering a blow that is undoubtedly MORE ACCURATE AND POWERFUL than the CR And that is why i value CLS over rapier. I know at some point i am going to need rapier for slayer.. but right now CLS is the apple of my eye

 

When you think about it.. The only damn thing CR has over rapier is Speed THATS IT i see everyone saying based on if i monster had 0 def rapier is better.. What if a monster had 1000 def? woudld you really want to take that toothpick into battle?

 

Rapier is not doing [cabbage] my whip already cant do, And thats official..

 

This is staycw and i approve this message :grin:

 

The "you can't argue because you don't own one" argument is terrible. I don't own either a MacBook Pro or a $35 Indian laptop, but I can guarantee you that the MacBook Pro is a better computer? Why? It has better stats. At 125 attack, with turmoil/piety, either weapon is going to be hitting most of the time on almost any monster.

 

"I was just soloing bandos today guy with rapier got maybe 2-10 kills... i admire the speed but when that blade on my mighty longsword comes down even though it may be a second slower i can almost always expect it to shred my enemy.. DElivering a blow that is undoubtedly MORE ACCURATE AND POWERFUL than the CR And that is why i value CLS over rapier. I know at some point i am going to need rapier for slayer.. but right now CLS is the apple of my eye"

 

You got... 2-10 kills? I can get 2-3 with stats probably worse than yours and a whip/obsidian shield, so I have no idea what you're talking about. Chaotic Rapier, fwiw, can probably get 50+ kills with ovls/turm/divine (whip can get 40), and I really don't see the Chaotic Longsword being that much better.

 

By the way, the difference between a rapier and a longsword is exactly 0.6 seconds. In other words, by the time the longsword attacks 100 times, the rapier attacks 125 times. Is the longsword anywhere close to 25% more accurate or powerful than the rapier by itself? No. And with each bonus, the rapier improves because of the higher attack speed (this manifests itself particularly with fixed bonuses like the Ferocious Ring, but also with Piety/Turmoil/Extremes).

 

"When you think about it.. The only damn thing CR has over rapier is Speed THATS IT i see everyone saying based on if i monster had 0 def rapier is better.. What if a monster had 1000 def? woudld you really want to take that toothpick into battle?"

 

Easy there bro. No monster has 1000 def. And fyi, CR > CLS at every boss besides maybe Saradomin, and even then Verac's is ~80-90% as good as CR or CLS. And yes, I'd take a toothpick into battle if I knew that toothpick could absolutely destroy the hell out of General Graardor.

 

"Rapier is not doing [cabbage] my whip already cant do, And thats official.."

 

The strength bonus of the rapier over the whip is like stacking the strength bonus of 5 Zerker Rings onto the whip. Also, rapier can stab. I guarantee your whip can't do that.

 

In the end, your argument comes down to looks. That's fine by me, but I'm secretly loling on the inside because by all indications, CLS = Whip @ Slayer.

[stonewall337]

Ye, my whip already owns bandos solo. Rapier will only be better. And since I don't solo bandos as much as I dks (CR wins) and TD (CR wins) or slay (CR wins) CR is better.

[Obtaurian]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

 

Its 10% more but 25% slower.

 

And we already know that the guy in that video isn't all that smart or knowledgeable. He's using both bandos boots and DFS when he is praying melee and using super antifires.

 

I second this, and aside from his [developmentally delayed]ed equipment, he's very slow. He takes his sweet time picking up drops and attacking his dragons. Not exactly a prime example of a master slayer.

 

He'd be better off using the CLS on slash, too.

[yuriqiu]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

 

Its 10% more but 25% slower.

 

And we already know that the guy in that video isn't all that smart or knowledgeable. He's using both bandos boots and DFS when he is praying melee and using super antifires.

 

I second this, and aside from his [developmentally delayed]ed equipment, he's very slow. He takes his sweet time picking up drops and attacking his dragons. Not exactly a prime example of a master slayer.

 

He'd be better off using the CLS on slash, too.

I've powerslayed with CLS. At most it was 10% faster on kills than whip. I thought I was going nuts at first so I brought both CLS and whip on tasks at abby demons, dark beasts, among a few others. Dragons cls won out big time. Everything else the difference is barely noticeable. I was one of the first to get a CLS and one of the biggest advocates for CLS when dungeoneering first came out. I'm 100% convinced now that rapier > cls in probably everywhere except bandos and sara gwd. Now if only I can refund my chaotic kite and long for a rapier and maul or rapier and staff, that'd make me happy :(

[iRed]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

 

Its 10% more but 25% slower.

 

And we already know that the guy in that video isn't all that smart or knowledgeable. He's using both bandos boots and DFS when he is praying melee and using super antifires.

 

I second this, and aside from his [developmentally delayed]ed equipment, he's very slow. He takes his sweet time picking up drops and attacking his dragons. Not exactly a prime example of a master slayer.

 

He'd be better off using the CLS on slash, too.

I've powerslayed with CLS. At most it was 10% faster on kills than whip. I thought I was going nuts at first so I brought both CLS and whip on tasks at abby demons, dark beasts, among a few others. Dragons cls won out big time. Everything else the difference is barely noticeable. I was one of the first to get a CLS and one of the biggest advocates for CLS when dungeoneering first came out. I'm 100% convinced now that rapier > cls in probably everywhere except bandos and sara gwd. Now if only I can refund my chaotic kite and long for a rapier and maul or rapier and staff, that'd make me happy :(

 

Stop with the "CLS is better than Cr only in bandos and sara" statement, I'm quite sure CLS will beat the CR in most bosses currently and the future bosses will only have higher defense giving the CLS the edge. Also to every ones "mathematical formula's and simulations"....none of them work because you don't factor in defense of monster and accuracy, of course CR will win with opponents having 0 defense that's simple logic, but what monster worth killing has 0 defense.

[Mecakoto]

I'm not sure why anyone would use longsword with chaotic kiteshield when the kite gives +2 stab attack. It's low but it's kinda going to waste with longsword...

 

CLS has an epic stab bonus, watch this guy use CLS for his iron dragons task.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yud7cGvYngo

 

CLS has the highest stab bonus of any non pvp weapon in the game, +107.

 

Its 10% more but 25% slower.

 

And we already know that the guy in that video isn't all that smart or knowledgeable. He's using both bandos boots and DFS when he is praying melee and using super antifires.

 

I second this, and aside from his [developmentally delayed]ed equipment, he's very slow. He takes his sweet time picking up drops and attacking his dragons. Not exactly a prime example of a master slayer.

 

He'd be better off using the CLS on slash, too.

I've powerslayed with CLS. At most it was 10% faster on kills than whip. I thought I was going nuts at first so I brought both CLS and whip on tasks at abby demons, dark beasts, among a few others. Dragons cls won out big time. Everything else the difference is barely noticeable. I was one of the first to get a CLS and one of the biggest advocates for CLS when dungeoneering first came out. I'm 100% convinced now that rapier > cls in probably everywhere except bandos and sara gwd. Now if only I can refund my chaotic kite and long for a rapier and maul or rapier and staff, that'd make me happy :(

 

Stop with the "CLS is better than Cr only in bandos and sara" statement, I'm quite sure CLS will beat the CR in most bosses currently and the future bosses will only have higher defense giving the CLS the edge. Also to every ones "mathematical formula's and simulations"....none of them work because you don't factor in defense of monster and accuracy, of course CR will win with opponents having 0 defense that's simple logic, but what monster worth killing has 0 defense.

 

We say it because it is true, mate.

 

Also, nice 55 Dungeoneering.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Stop with the "CLS is better than Cr only in bandos and sara" statement, I'm quite sure CLS will beat the CR in most bosses currently and the future bosses will only have higher defense giving the CLS the edge.

if future bosses have even higher defence, it just means the chaotic maul will dominate.

for the CLS to be worthwhile, jagex needs to release monsters with a defense level just high enough to be better than the CR, and just low enough to be inferior to the chaotic maul.

and of course, the boss must not be weak to any attack form other than the ones used by the CLS.

 

sounds awfully unlikely.

 

Also to every ones "mathematical formula's and simulations".... none of them work because you don't factor in defense of monster and accuracy, of course CR will win with opponents having 0 defense that's simple logic, but what monster worth killing has 0 defense.

You should read some of Sseli's research and calculations, he can actually factor in defense and accuracy.

[TheAncient]

By the way, just used maul at Bandos.

 

It's pretty lolworthy. I'm pretty sure it outclasses (DPS) CR by a significant amount, and likely CLS too - at least for crashing. The slight problem with using it for crashing is that its hits have such high variance - if you want to consistently beat out a weaker opponent, CLS may or may not be better. But if you want to hold your own against someone just as strong as you, CM is going to be better. You'll lose the fights where CM misses/hits low, but the slight majority of the time you'll beat the opponent by a large margin.

 

if future bosses have even higher defence, it just means the chaotic maul will dominate.

for the CLS to be worthwhile, jagex needs to release monsters with a defense level just high enough to be better than the CR, and just low enough to be inferior to the chaotic maul.

and of course, the boss must not be weak to any attack form other than the ones used by the CLS.

This is something we're not entirely sure of. While CM will be more powerful than CLS against all defended opponents (that don't have a slash weakness), we don't know whether or not that DPS bonus outweighs the loss of the shield.

All we can say with a good degree of certainty is that the DPS will be higher. We can't say it'll be better.

 

REASONS TO BUY A CLS

Previously I downplayed the advantages of CLS. While I still think CR and CMaul are the better choices (in all cases) for DPS, CLS is BETTER SITUATIONALLY. The key word here is SITUATIONAL.

 

When you may or may not need a shield, CLS is better.

- For High defense PvP without eating (i.e. clan wars, castle wars since food doesn't take an attack turn there), CLS is marginally better than CR but CM should be used (as a sidearm) anyway for KO's/melee rushes.

- For High defense PvM, CLS is slightly better than CR. This almost only applies to Bandos (in Sara, CM will be better because of the lag between hits from running)

- CLS may or may not be the best weapon for TD's

- CLS will benefit from a dragon defender more than CM, obviously.

[Squisher_33]

just for the "kills" reference, dont go saying how high and mighty cls is cuz u get x amount of kills, months ago geodoni...founder of otg...solod 50 bandos with a whip, this was the record until chaotic came out

[TheAncient]

just for the "kills" reference, dont go saying how high and mighty cls is cuz u get x amount of kills, months ago geodoni...founder of otg...solod 50 bandos with a whip, this was the record until chaotic came out

 

The best way to test which weapon is better at Bandos is just to have 2 people evenly matched in stats use each weapon and see who gets more kills.

 

This test was done with CR vs CLS and CLS won. More tests need to be done to be sure of this conclusion.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

So if were to go by the theory that accuracy dice rolls are calculated the same way as max hit is calculated, we get the following DPS spread:

Comparison of chaotic weapons

 

the chaotic rapier demonstrates superior DPS to the CLS with stab on targets of 2000+ defense rating or higher.

To give you some perspective: A monster without armor, would need lvl 500 combat and no offensive stats at all to achieve that level

a primal forgotten warrior, in full armor, kiteshield, gloves, and boots, has a defense rating of about 1100.

 

Needless to say, monsters with that kind of stab defense don't really exist right now. And if they did, the chaotic rapier would still be better at stabbing.

The CLS starts demonstrating superior DPS on targets with slash defense ratings of about 400 and higher.

 

which is fairly low value, considering a maxed player with extreme defense potions, and full torags, but no DFS comes out to about 780 defense rating.

 

the thing is, unless the targets crush defense is much higher than its slash defense,

the chaotic maul likewise overtakes the CLS in DPS rate at around 400 defense rating.

 

This makes the CLS the best weapon ONLY for targets of 400+ slash defense, who have substantially more crush defense than slash defense.

[Mazhar]

I honestly don't see why this discussion is still going on

It is apparent that each chaotic item has different benefits at different places

There really is no one item that if used everywhere is going to get the job done as efficiently as possible

Rapier is best for slayer, KBD, Giant mole (pro boss), frost dragons, and training monsters such as AZs and Zombie Monkeys

CLS is best for Bandos and safe pvp minigames (most armour has more stab def than slash)

Cmaul is best for Pking, tds, wfs, kq, sara

For someone like me who doesn't kill monsters other than corp and bandos and spends hours at duel arena + clan wars wasting time, cls is what id be better off with

Others, especially lower leveld players would best off with rapier for slayer/training

[SirIzenhime]

 

Stop with the "CLS is better than Cr only in bandos and sara" statement, I'm quite sure CLS will beat the CR in most bosses currently and the future bosses will only have higher defense giving the CLS the edge. Also to every ones "mathematical formula's and simulations"....none of them work because you don't factor in defense of monster and accuracy, of course CR will win with opponents having 0 defense that's simple logic, but what monster worth killing has 0 defense.

 

Zammy - K'ril has crap defense, rapier beats CLS on low defense monsters

Mole - weak to stab

KBD - weak to stab

Mithril dragons - Weak to stab

TDs - the higher the DPS, the better (assuming you're extremely efficient)

Kalphite queen - Weak to crush, so neither is better

Armadyl - Can't melee

Corporal Beast - They're both not spears, so neither should be used

DKs - Supreme has low melee defense, rapier wins on low def monsters

 

CLS wins at bandos because he actually has defense, and is weaker to Slash anyways

CLS beats rapier at Saradomin because Zilyana has extremely high defense, so the more accuracy the better. But there you'd be better off with a Maul, or even Veracs over CLS.

 

It's mostly logic as to which are better. Are you waiting for someone to make a few 10 MInute YT videos to prove it?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Hey, did you know that you can actually calculate the DPS ratio of two weapons on a target with an infinitely high defense level?

(you know, all that limit as something approaches infinity stuff from Highschool calc)

 

Well you can so long as runescape runs on a dice roll accuracy system.

 

assumptions:

99 attack + strength

extreme attack + strength potions

Turmoil

target has lvl 99 attack + strength

no slayer task

Neitiznot

Barrows Gloves

Dragon Boots

Berserker Ring (i)

Rune Defender

Chaotic longsword/rapier

no offensive bonuses from body/legs/cape

 

note that bandos armor and firecapes and such, would skew the data further in favor of the chaotic rapier.

 

If you crunch the numbers, you find that the DPS of the chaotic rapier on stab, on a target of infinitely large stab defense, will NEVER be less than 7.9% faster than the DPS of a chaotic longsword on stab, on a target of equally large stab defense.

 

Likewise, lets assume we have a target with infinitely large defense. And his stab defense and his slash defense are equal.

Using the same calculations, we find that a chaotic rapier on stab, will have no less than 0.7% stab DPS than a chaotic longsword's slash DPS on the same target.

 

QED: the CLS is only better than the rapier IF a combination of the following are true:

your attack + strength levels are not close to 99

you do not have extreme potions

turmoil isn't give you the full +29% attack +32% strength

you are not on slayer task

you don't have barrows gloves, berserker rings, onyx(i), or any other items with offensive abilities that would sway you in favor of the rapier.

The target has much higher stab defense than slash defense.

 

math for thought <3

[Golvellius]

Also to every ones "mathematical formula's and simulations".... none of them work because you don't factor in defense of monster and accuracy, of course CR will win with opponents having 0 defense that's simple logic, but what monster worth killing has 0 defense.

You should read some of Sseli's research and calculations, he can actually factor in defense and accuracy.

 

Its dubious at best.

Jagex are known efficiency freaks so why generate two random numbers and bias them using twice the computations before comparing them and then determining a result.

I suspect its easier just to select one random number from a constant set of numbers and then compare that to a number derived from one equation involving attack and equipment bonuses of the combatents.

As for applying Jard's max damage equation that its based on:

His final form is messy and certainly not the way you would design a game on a blank piece of paper.

I'll give him credit though for figuring out the relationship between character level and equipment bonus.

I.e. Max Damage = Strength level with multipliers x (equipment bonus x constant + 1)

[Grimy_Bunyip]

Its dubious at best.

Jagex are known efficiency freaks so why generate two random numbers and bias them using twice the computations before comparing them and then determining a result.

I suspect its easier just to select one random number from a constant set of numbers and then compare that to a number derived from one equation involving attack and equipment bonuses of the combatents.

As for applying Jard's max damage equation that its based on:

His final form is messy and certainly not the way you would design a game on a blank piece of paper.

I'll give him credit though for figuring out the relationship between character level and equipment bonus.

I.e. Max Damage = Strength level with multipliers x (equipment bonus x constant + 1)

messy or not, they are an accurate interpolation of situations that we would experience.

They are accurate for low max hits.

Sure, jard's calculations might be wrong, but we won't notice them unless we get newer and higher max hits and accuracies

(in which case the chaotic rapier would win over the chaotic longsword due to the small strength + attack bonus delta between the longsword and rapier getting drowned out)

 

secondly, selecting random numbers from a constant set of numbers, does not affect the expected DPS unless you are able to get a hold of, and view the "constant set of numbers" that Jagex draws their random numbers from.

Unlikely considering Runescape runs on Java.

[AnneFrank]

i am going to get my longsword as my 5th item

 

after i get ckite/farseers

 

 

SO

 

i could careless.

longsword is pro

rapier is pro

 

we all know chaotic is pro

[xpx]

just for the "kills" reference, dont go saying how high and mighty cls is cuz u get x amount of kills, months ago geodoni...founder of otg...solod 50 bandos with a whip, this was the record until chaotic came out

 

The best way to test which weapon is better at Bandos is just to have 2 people evenly matched in stats use each weapon and see who gets more kills.

 

This test was done with CR vs CLS and CLS won. More tests need to be done to be sure of this conclusion.

A test of duo bandos like that can only show which is better, and we know that cls is better, but barely shows how much one of them is better. A better test would be the maximum number of kills you can get in a set amount of time, as that could also take minion killing into account. And really, now that we can take into account people getting many chaotic weapons, it's just another reason not to get CLS- a combination of CLS/CR or CLS/CM leave out a nice portion of the game, where as CR/CM is great everywhere.