stonewall337 Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Weapons in the same tier? You mean like rune tier, or what? Since dagger is fast, but its not better. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Defy Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 i dont understand why you guys say the CRAPIER is more accurate when the CLS has higher stats in everything, wouldnt that mean that it is more accurate? or am i missing something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpx Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 i dont understand why you guys say the CRAPIER is more accurate when the CLS has higher stats in everything, wouldnt that mean that it is more accurate? or am i missing somethingCR is never more accurate than CLS in any situation, none the less, the rapier is as accurate or very close in accuracy in a number of situations. First to 99 Farming on 27. September, 2005.First to 3766 Port Score on 20. March, 2014.First to 4664 Port Score on 2. March, 2015. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedman Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Weapons in the same tier? You mean like rune tier, or what? Since dagger is fast, but its not better.Dagger isn't faster than scimmy. A Guide to Chinning in Ape atoll: up to 325kxp/h! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Weapons in the same tier? You mean like rune tier, or what? Since dagger is fast, but its not better.Dagger isn't faster than scimmy.No, but it is faster then bax. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 i dont understand why you guys say the CRAPIER is more accurate when the CLS has higher stats in everything, wouldnt that mean that it is more accurate? or am i missing somethingCR is never more accurate than CLS in any situation, none the less, the rapier is as accurate or very close in accuracy in a number of situations.and in places like abby demons and darkbeast where they have close accuaracy rapier is better----i see so many 138s in full bandos overloads and cls at darkbeast or abby and i kill way faster than them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owned_Nex Posted August 11, 2010 Share Posted August 11, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Weapons in the same tier? You mean like rune tier, or what? Since dagger is fast, but its not better.Dagger isn't faster than scimmy.No, but it is faster then bax. Fine.Considering real weapon categories, faster speed wins in the same tier. And even then I'm not so sure that Baxe is necessarily much better than dagger. Dungeoneering isn't a skill. I'm faster than bots at Sorceress Garden. PM me if you want to chat. My PM is always off. My keyboard is on fire. Want some? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My_Eggs Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Rune dagger > R2h/ rune long/ rune baxe? I highly doubt it.Scimitar > R2h/rune long/rune baxe True, but he said the faster weapon is always better. The dagger is faster than the 3 I mentioned and not better than any of them, which means the faster weapon isn't ALWAYS better. However, I still agree that the rapier is better than the CLS in many situations. 99 HP, Attack, Strength, Defence, Summoning, Ranged, Herblore, Prayer, Agility, Magic, Slayer, Fletching, Fishing, Woodcutting, Mining, and Thieving. Jagex'd out of my untrimmed hp cape on 6/14/2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedman Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Rune dagger > R2h/ rune long/ rune baxe? I highly doubt it.Scimitar > R2h/rune long/rune baxe True, but he said the faster weapon is always better. The dagger is faster than the 3 I mentioned and not better than any of them, which means the faster weapon isn't ALWAYS better. However, I still agree that the rapier is better than the CLS in many situations.Dagger is just bad design, since scimitar has same speed but more strength and accuracy. Makes no sense to include dagger anywhere. A Guide to Chinning in Ape atoll: up to 325kxp/h! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youmu Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Ohh boy... let's not turn this into another "scimmy vs the other crap" debates. <_< Anyway, pantim is right. The fastest weapon in a certain tier is always the superior one. Of course, the exception is Daemonheim weapons, in which the 2h and spear are the best. Ok, back to the debate. I'm still sticking to my claim that the chaotic rapier is the best. Sure, maybe in GWD the longsword may fare better, but it probably won't be that big of a difference anyway. BlogTrimmed | Master Quester | Final BossBoss pets: Bombi | Shrimpy | Ellie | Tz-Rek Jad | Karil the Bobbled | Mega Ducklings120s: Dungeoneering | Invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viv Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Ohh boy... let's not turn this into another "scimmy vs the other crap" debates. <_< Anyway, pantim is right. The fastest weapon in a certain tier is always the superior one. Of course, the exception is Daemonheim weapons, in which the 2h and spear are the best. Ok, back to the debate. I'm still sticking to my claim that the chaotic rapier is the best. Sure, maybe in GWD the longsword may fare better, but it probably won't be that big of a difference anyway.the longis much better at bandos because of the accuracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Kurity Posted August 12, 2010 Share Posted August 12, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Weapons in the same tier? You mean like rune tier, or what? Since dagger is fast, but its not better. Scimitar is fastest weapon (same speed as dagger), and its way better DPS than any other rune weapon. Using an example like rune dagger is like me saying mage is underpowered because wind strike always splashes. O.O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howbadisbad Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Off topic, but I've heard that augury actually DOES increase magic damage. Any truth to this? I wouldn't be surprised at all. The KB still says that the chaotic staff has a +15% damage bonus. It really doesn't. From who have you heard this? It's a "friend of a friend" thing. :lol: Someone in my clan chat said that he's friends with some of the top dungeoneers, and they apparently told him that augury does increase magic damage. I remember somebody posting a picture of the stat adjustments with Augury activated, showing it increases your Magic by 20% and NORMAL Defence by 25%. She didn't say anything about it actually increasing damage though. Interesting. Edit: If Augury really does increase your max hit by 20%, Ice Barrage maxes at 588 with an arcane stream necklace, a chaotic staff and Magic Focus' scrolls... lol. Not exactly on topic but has anyone confirmed or denied this yet? Do not refer to the KB please :rolleyes: Hypocrite. You tell others to be nice then attempt to murder people. Nice going, you just failed life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Ohh boy... let's not turn this into another "scimmy vs the other crap" debates. <_< Anyway, pantim is right. The fastest weapon in a certain tier is always the superior one. Of course, the exception is Daemonheim weapons, in which the 2h and spear are the best. Ok, back to the debate. I'm still sticking to my claim that the chaotic rapier is the best. Sure, maybe in GWD the longsword may fare better, but it probably won't be that big of a difference anyway. LOVE the fact that you are F2P, have never been to GWD, know nothing first hand about their defenses, and claim that the difference between CR and CLS isn't huge at GWD, without being able to test this, or even test the difference between whip w/ defender and whip without. (Close to the same accuracy difference as CR to whip) I'm curious, on what do you base your "opinion"? In other words, you are only pretending to know what the hell you talk about, when in reality, you don't. "I'm sure the accuracy difference between whip+dfs and whip+Defender isn't that big of a difference anyways." ETCETC [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaaps1 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Erm, no. Its the speed to strength ratio. It just happens to be that most fast weapons have faster DPS then weapons with higher strength but low speed. Actually, of weapons in the same tier, the faster weapon is always better. Rune dagger > R2h/ rune long/ rune baxe? I highly doubt it.Scimitar > R2h/rune long/rune baxe True, but he said the faster weapon is always better. The dagger is faster than the 3 I mentioned and not better than any of them, which means the faster weapon isn't ALWAYS better. However, I still agree that the rapier is better than the CLS in many situations.Dagger is just bad design, since scimitar has same speed but more strength and accuracy. Makes no sense to include dagger anywhere. Except Stealing Creation, unless they were intelligent enough to fix that. ~It's Super Effective! (The Zaaps Blog)~My YouTube Channel, where you get to watch me go around and make a fool out of myself and all comp capersGuides:~Yeah I wrote them once~Suggestions:~Yeah I made those once~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youmu Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 LOVE the fact that you are F2P, have never been to GWD, know nothing first hand about their defenses, and claim that the difference between CR and CLS isn't huge at GWD, without being able to test this, or even test the difference between whip w/ defender and whip without. (Close to the same accuracy difference as CR to whip) I'm curious, on what do you base your "opinion"? In other words, you are only pretending to know what the hell you talk about, when in reality, you don't. "I'm sure the accuracy difference between whip+dfs and whip+Defender isn't that big of a difference anyways." ETCETCFirst off, I HAVE been a member so I know what I'm talking about. And I was mainly referring to normal training and slayer, where speed always wins out over power. Maybe I was a bit wrong about bosses, but whatever. BlogTrimmed | Master Quester | Final BossBoss pets: Bombi | Shrimpy | Ellie | Tz-Rek Jad | Karil the Bobbled | Mega Ducklings120s: Dungeoneering | Invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 LOVE the fact that you are F2P, have never been to GWD, know nothing first hand about their defenses, and claim that the difference between CR and CLS isn't huge at GWD, without being able to test this, or even test the difference between whip w/ defender and whip without. (Close to the same accuracy difference as CR to whip) I'm curious, on what do you base your "opinion"? In other words, you are only pretending to know what the hell you talk about, when in reality, you don't. "I'm sure the accuracy difference between whip+dfs and whip+Defender isn't that big of a difference anyways." ETCETCFirst off, I HAVE been a member so I know what I'm talking about. And I was mainly referring to normal training and slayer, where speed always wins out over power. Maybe I was a bit wrong about bosses, but whatever. Never said you havn't been a member, rather that you havn't done gwd. And you were TOTALLY wrong with your post, so I don't see how its a "whatever" matter, instead its a "I was wrong" matter. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youmu Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Never said you havn't been a member, rather that you havn't done gwd. And you were TOTALLY wrong with your post, so I don't see how its a "whatever" matter, instead its a "I was wrong" matter.Slayer monsters aren't strong against stab (especially metal dragons) so I don't see how I was totally wrong there. Ok, I admit I was wrong and a bit over the head with bosses. I don't really want this to get any further, so I'll just stop there. BlogTrimmed | Master Quester | Final BossBoss pets: Bombi | Shrimpy | Ellie | Tz-Rek Jad | Karil the Bobbled | Mega Ducklings120s: Dungeoneering | Invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Except I pointed out the flaw in your argument at GWD ONLY. Stop using damn straw mans. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgelemmons Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 STONEWALL, BE QUIET AND STOP TROLLING. Arguing about arguments is for nubs. Anyway, I plan a getting a rapier. I'll mostly be using it for slayer, where the monster defense is in general low enough that a rapier has a higher dps than a longsword. And if I do fight bosses, a rapier will still be better than a whip or zs. It seems that a rapier has a much broader spectrum of uses than a longsword, and I'm choosing it for that. Thanks to Uno for the awsome sig <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaaps1 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Except I pointed out the flaw in your argument at GWD ONLY. Stop using damn straw mans. Tbh, what's a straw man? I'm actually considering a CLS more and more as I read this. It just seems to me that the CLS is so versatile. Sure it's not fantastic for melee training, but with maxed melees, I don't particularly care about that. It was stated that the CLS is better than the CR at certain bosses, even though the Maul would beat the CLS at those locations. However, it's fair to say that a CR beats the CM at most other locations. Thus, by choosing the CLS, I can walk into any non-training situation confidently. Sure, you can all say that "I've observed that my CR beats other players with a CLS". Fine. But that means exactly what it says. When you use a CR, you manage to beat players with a CLS. Nothing more. Imo, you can't extrapolate and say that "CR beats CLS at most boss monsters" from that fact alone, whether it's true or not. Plus, I'm not particularly concerned about competing against some kid with a CR. I have Overloads, Turmoil, and soon a Steel Titan. VERY FEW players are going to crash me, and the few people who can would be 138s. Unless they have a team, I don't think many players at 138 would bother crashing another 138 with the same maxed gear, except with a CLS instead of a CR. If someone does have the balls to do that, well then I'm going to hop or end the trip early. Competition is bad, and it honestly does not matter whether I chose a CLS or CR in this situation, since either way I will have competition, which will slow down my kills. In all other situation, I think the advantage of either Overloads, Turmoil, or a Steel Titan (or a combination of the three) would outweigh the small advantage someone may have by using a CR over my CLS. But then you could say, but what if you meet a team? Well goddamn it, even if I had a CR, what are the chances I'm going to beat TWO players? In summary, since the CLS is just so versatile, I find it the better option. Yes CR would be better for general purposes, but once you cut out the fact that I'm not doing any melee training, it really makes the CR seem not so great. Also, at a certain point, being crashed isn't such a big deal, since anyone not maxed won't be successful, and anyone maxed would be smart enough not to crash you (unless they had a team, in which case it wouldn't make a difference). ~It's Super Effective! (The Zaaps Blog)~My YouTube Channel, where you get to watch me go around and make a fool out of myself and all comp capersGuides:~Yeah I wrote them once~Suggestions:~Yeah I made those once~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assume Nothing Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 Another scenario; Let's say, I got 88 Dungeoneering for kicks after getting 85 for Frost Dragons. Now, I bought the Rapier and the Maul, is there any point in the CLS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stonewall337 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 STONEWALL, BE QUIET AND STOP TROLLING. Arguing about arguments is for nubs. Anyway, I plan a getting a rapier. I'll mostly be using it for slayer, where the monster defense is in general low enough that a rapier has a higher dps than a longsword. And if I do fight bosses, a rapier will still be better than a whip or zs. It seems that a rapier has a much broader spectrum of uses than a longsword, and I'm choosing it for that. You know what, no. Point out where I am wrong in any of either my arguments or assessments, or my rebuttals. This is a discussion topic, and i'm pointing out a flaw in many of his arguments, within the boundaries of "minor flaming" allowed by the rules. If a F2P'er wants to come in here and discuss, fine. Some F2P'ers know what they are talking about. However, if they do, pretending they know what they are talking about, and are wrong, they are going to be pounced on far more readily then a P2P'er would be. The straw men iare as follows: First off, he says that I claim he has never been P2P. (Never made such a claim) Secondly, he claims that "And I was mainly referring to normal training and slayer, where speed always wins out over power. " When he talked about CR and CLS at Sara, which is what I responded to. I called him out for talking about GWD, not for any thing else, and he responds talking about CR and CLS at something OUTSIDE GWD, which is also not what I was talking about. A straw man is a logical fallicy where one erects an argument based on a false pretense, and then tears down that argument, or builds it up. His claiming I said he was never P2P, when in reality I said he had no real GWD/Bossing experience, is his construction of a straw man. [hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaaps1 Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 A straw man is a logical fallicy where one erects an argument based on a false pretense, and then tears down that argument, or builds it up. His claiming I said he was never P2P, when in reality I said he had no real GWD/Bossing experience, is his construction of a straw man. I am thoroughly convinced whoever came up with that term is a genius. ~It's Super Effective! (The Zaaps Blog)~My YouTube Channel, where you get to watch me go around and make a fool out of myself and all comp capersGuides:~Yeah I wrote them once~Suggestions:~Yeah I made those once~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimy_Bunyip Posted August 14, 2010 Share Posted August 14, 2010 In summary, since the CLS is just so versatile, I find it the better option. Yes CR would be better for general purposes, but once you cut out the fact that I'm not doing any melee training, it really makes the CR seem not so great. Also, at a certain point, being crashed isn't such a big deal, since anyone not maxed won't be successful, and anyone maxed would be smart enough not to crash you (unless they had a team, in which case it wouldn't make a difference).Lets assume a target of infinitely large defense, and that runescape runs on a dice roll accuracy system.As the players stats approach high levels (which we can assume since we're talking about the highest level players who have access to chaotic weapons)we find that DPS becomes a function of (Maximum Accuracy Dice Roll)*(Maximum DPS) Lets assume that we're talking about Boss hunting scenarios (so no slayer mask since that's the only place where the CLS is currently debated to be viable) So assuming that the Max DPS of the chaotic rapier is 14% higher than the CLS (which it is for max stats, overloads, turmoil, and approximately maxed out gear)This means that the CLS needs a maximum accuracy dice roll that is greater than 14% higher than the rapier in order to be better than a chaotic rapier even on a target of essentially infinite defense.Finally lets compare the stab of the rapier to the slash of the longsword, by assuming that the stab and slash defenses of the target are roughly equal (few boss monsters are noticeably weak to any form of melee, other than say, stab on the corp beast) so for a maxed player, the attack bonus for the rapier on stab is about 136, to the chaotic longswords 165.The chaotic longswords is 21% higher.But if a +21% increase in weapon strength bonus doesn't translate to +21% increase in max hit.In fact, it translates to something typically much less. Granted we don't know how accuracy dice rolls are calculated, I think it's reasonable to assume that the +21% attack bonus difference translates to less than a +21% increase in accuracy dice roll. In which case, we know that the CLS is NEVER more than roughly 6% better DPS, even on a target of essentially infinite defense.In fact if we assume that accuracy dice rolls are calculated in the same way as maximum hits, we find that the maximum accuracy dice roll is only increased by +14% assuming the stats and gear mentioned above. In which case it indicates that the CLS doesn't even become EQUAL to a rapier until a target has infinite defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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