The Rollback Cover-up

[Kimberly]

Actually we may not... I believe we SHOULD shame those automatons... Throw them in the pillory... Publicize their emails, IP's, creditcard data and what not...

 

Why is potential identity theft a suitable punishment for botting...? O_o

[Zaaps1]

Actually we may not... I believe we SHOULD shame those automatons... Throw them in the pillory... Publicize their emails, IP's, creditcard data and what not... Let the mob deal with it the way we would have dealt with bug abusers like Durial if we had the chance... I agree with Das... Jagex has put money over balls, but I fear that this is true pretty much evrywhere in the world...

 

Well idk about credit card data, but I definitely think Jagex should publicize these things more, if for no other reason than to remove a few rumors.

[lordkafei]

Well, it does bother me when botting goes unpunished. But I do not believe all instances warrant the same level of punishment. I do not believe you can lump the script kiddie who bots his wc to 99 for a cape in with the same people who bot accounts for real world financial gain. Though each behavior is wrong, they merit some common-sense differentiation in punishment.

[Triquos]

I'm glad it has been confirmed that it was indeed to get rid of bots. Personally I was quite worried when it was rumoured to be a bug, though after a while I did start to notice a pattern, and that pattern being only players using bots getting their levels reset. Thanks for the confirmation :)

[Ts_Stormrage]

I'm just amazed that bots in Runescape are still so primitive. I expected Jad-hunting and Corp-hunting bots by now. o.O

 

I can just imagine how much money the kid who makes a Jad-hunting bot will make.

And you think lvl 30's with firecapes are weird now? How about a few thousand of them?

 

But in all honesty, stonewall, if you believe this...

any skill worth caring about rank is one which can't be botted already

...is true... How would you feel about your hard earned 99 ranks that were suddenly bot-able? Technology does not stand still, and eventually every aspect we currently know of RS will be bot-able...

 

Wouldn't care. I don't play for others. If 20k people botted 120 DG tommorow, I would still get it.

 

Even if everyone around you would proceed to call you a botter, just like most p120-DGers are currently acused of as nolifers? I know it will still be an achievement for you... But how would you feel if it was an achievement to be celebrated by you, and you alone?

[Ts_Stormrage]

As for my examples on how to punish bots:

 

Credit card data is just an example of how far one's imagination for bot-punishments could go (gotta cross the line before you know where it's at)... I hope you are all smart enough to know that these things may ALSO be stolen and if publicized would directly hurt an innocent person...

 

But... How far would you go to punish a cheater?

[Kimberly]

As for my examples on how to punish bots:

 

Credit card data is just an example of how far one's imagination for bot-punishments could go (gotta cross the line before you know where it's at)... I hope you are all smart enough to know that these things may ALSO be stolen and if publicized would directly hurt an innocent person...

 

But... How far would you go to punish a cheater?

 

I'd have to question your line of reasoning if violating your real-life information, which has far more dangerous and long-lasting implications than botting in a game, is a good idea. It doesn't matter if they can be stolen or publicized elsewhere, if you're going into an obligation with a company (which we havE) they guarantee to keep this information private. And for a surety if they cannot protect their payment methods and information security, they certainly wouldn't keep growing.

 

It's pretty clear that personal information leaking is a severe no-no.

[stonewall337]

As for my examples on how to punish bots:

 

Credit card data is just an example of how far one's imagination for bot-punishments could go (gotta cross the line before you know where it's at)... I hope you are all smart enough to know that these things may ALSO be stolen and if publicized would directly hurt an innocent person...

 

But... How far would you go to punish a cheater?

 

 

Its actually a moot point. I don't play enough to ever become a player with a one-of-a-kind skill leve, either first to 99, 120, etc.

 

For the record, I've been called a botter, as well as a no-lifer. I just ignores those players. Seriously, there are too damn many over-sensitive people on this game. Why should I care what haters say?

[Ts_Stormrage]

ugh...

 

As I said... its an EXAMPLE of how far one could let their imagination run wild in order to get back at the cheaters...

 

I then proceeded to ask people how they would punish bots, hopefully to see where THEIR imaginations would take them, possibly spawning an awesome idea...

(for awesome idea's, just watch this vid or this vid)

[stonewall337]

ugh...

 

As I said... its an EXAMPLE of how far one could let their imagination run wild in order to get back at the cheaters...

 

I then proceeded to ask people how they would punish bots, hopefully to see where THEIR imaginations would take them, possibly spawning an awesome idea...

(for awesome idea's, just watch this vid or this vid)

 

 

Pro tip, just ban them 2 week first time, then perm ban.

[Kimberly]

ugh...

 

As I said... its an EXAMPLE of how far one could let their imagination run wild in order to get back at the cheaters...

 

I then proceeded to ask people how they would punish bots, hopefully to see where THEIR imaginations would take them, possibly spawning an awesome idea...

(for awesome idea's, just watch this vid or this vid)

 

Except it's not something any business would ever do so that's a pretty poor example. o_O

[Obtaurian]

As for my examples on how to punish bots:

 

Credit card data is just an example of how far one's imagination for bot-punishments could go (gotta cross the line before you know where it's at)... I hope you are all smart enough to know that these things may ALSO be stolen and if publicized would directly hurt an innocent person...

 

But... How far would you go to punish a cheater?

 

 

Its actually a moot point. I don't play enough to ever become a player with a one-of-a-kind skill leve, either first to 99, 120, etc.

 

For the record, I've been called a botter, as well as a no-lifer. I just ignores those players. Seriously, there are too damn many over-sensitive people on this game. Why should I care what haters say?

 

This. I've never understood why players get so caught up in what other people think of them. I get called all kinds of names when I play, and I somehow manage to continue playing and not caring. I know it might be difficult for you (Ts_Stormrage) to do, but maybe you should . . . you know . . . ignore them.

 

I agree with Stonewall. It does not matter how many people bot such-and-such skill -- I would still get 99 (or higher) in that skill if it's one that I like.

[Youmu]

As for my examples on how to punish bots:

 

Credit card data is just an example of how far one's imagination for bot-punishments could go (gotta cross the line before you know where it's at)... I hope you are all smart enough to know that these things may ALSO be stolen and if publicized would directly hurt an innocent person...

 

But... How far would you go to punish a cheater?

A simple permanent ban would suffice. No need to reveal credit card data, that would just make Jagex look even worse.

 

Do you want people putting Jagex in the name of "credit card bandit"?

[Ts_Stormrage]

And that pretty much shows the deviding line between us, doesn't it?

 

It's ok though, I'm happy to agree to disagree with you both (obt and stone) at this point in time, but Ihave a feeling that there will one day come a day that I can put better under words (or someone else does it for me) OR the proper situation arises that will show beyond a shadow of a doubt why botting affects us all in such a negative way, that every single non-botter would rise up to defend the game against them...

 

Right now its close to 4am in the morning and I've had a little bit too much of the good (or bad, depending on your position) stuff, so this will be my last reply for now...

 

Bye!

[das]

ugh...

 

As I said... its an EXAMPLE of how far one could let their imagination run wild in order to get back at the cheaters...

 

 

 

A piss poor ill thought example that anyone with a grasp of law/contracts and privacy would of not posted.

 

 

 

LOL indeed at this... I for one DO know how much of a cheating bunch MOST (most, not all) clans are...

 

Funny, i've always held you quite high in my shady morality clan leader rankings

 

Das, that was really an interesting thing to ask. Simple, I don't have to prove their statement right or wrong. Burden of proof is on them, not me.

It's a inane observation to say bots control the game, or don't control the game, without real numbers, considering Jagex actually made an effort to cover it up on the forums for awhile, I would say it's because they are afraid of a backlash.

 

 

Cheating devalues achievements clear and simple, it's wrong, they deserve to be banned. It obviously has economic side effects, but the economy has felt the effects of them for quite awhile, so it's a moot point. Agilty botting, icy botting and the other popular forms now, have a very minimal if negligible impact on the economy.

[NukeMarine]

Personally, I'm glad Jagex is now getting creative with how it can punish people. It was annoying back when the only punishment given out for almost anything was "ban". It also means that Jagex is looking at each case and handing out a punishment that fits the crime.

 

Skill Roll back- those that bot skill leveling games

Bank Roll back - those that bot for cash/items

Grand Exchange ban - those caught price exploiting

Person to Person trade bans - real world traders

Change name - offensive name

etc.

 

Plus, on top of such "private" punishments, Jagex can put "Frown Faces" above cheaters heads in game for a certain time.

 

Note, these only matter if done at accounts that appear to be used to play the game ie an account a real person cares about. These aren't for gold farming accounts. These are players that wanted something easier than others had to do. Punishing the account, but allowing the account to continues helps determine if lesser measures were warranted. Now, if a person continued to cheat even after a moderate punishment then met out strong punishments. Plus, let's face it, a bank wipe on top of full skill, quest and achievement reset (plus loss of house and other saved features) is the same as a ban, just that you keep the account.

 

Put it this way, if you park in a handicap space, the county does not tow away your car (ban). It gives you a ticket with a monetary fine (bank or skill rollback). Keep breaking that law, and the county may have a rule allowing them to impound your car.

[Omali]

As for my examples on how to punish bots:

 

Credit card data is just an example of how far one's imagination for bot-punishments could go (gotta cross the line before you know where it's at)... I hope you are all smart enough to know that these things may ALSO be stolen and if publicized would directly hurt an innocent person...

 

But... How far would you go to punish a cheater?

 

That's actually a great idea.

 

1. Bot in a game.

2. Wait for Jagex to post your information.

3. Sue the ever loving [cabbage] out of them.

4. Win, because no country's courts would ever side with Jagex irregardless if the EULA said they could do so.

5. Never have to work again when your check comes in the mail.

[Ts_Stormrage]

Right, point taken already about that in a previous post of mine :oops: ...

 

I know its a very poor example, but as I said (in a somewhat intoxicated state, mind you) it was just an example of what one could imagine a punishment could be... And after that I asked what YOU thought would be an appropriate punishment...

 

Next time, please read beyond the first post on a page :)

 

Oh, and...

Funny, i've always held you quite high in my shady morality clan leader rankings

 

I have never broken the rules myself, and I'll do anything possible to prove this if asked, let this be clear... But I've known for quite a while now that, if every clan leader out there would kick everyone out of his clan that cheats (from the not-going-to-be-banned-anyways botting, to the undetectable accoutn sharing, all the way to DDoS-ing other people and/or Teamspeak servers), Jagex might as well stop with developping that Clan Support thing...

 

There would not be many clans left, and those that were left would not have many members in them... How do I know this? I do because people will not even hesitate anymore to admit they are cheating, and most of them are quite proud of the fact that they havent been caught...

 

In my own clan I've come to terms with this in the form of a compromise... I'll try everything to convince people not to share their account, rwt, you name it, and if I catch them cheating I will defintily report them, as would pretty much most of my clan... But I will not kick them out...

 

Jagex will punish cheaters according to how they think is sufficient, why should I as a clanleader be any stricter? Oh I'll laugh my ass off if someone rage-quits over his entire bank being party-roomed cuz he shared his account with one too many people, and I might have been the one that reported him too... But I see no reason why I should kick such a person from my clan if Jagex doesn't kick them from the game...

 

As a clanleader you're always implicitly asked to have the highest moral standards, but I've known many leaders and even a tenfold of clan members, and the story here is true in many more places than you'd wanna know about...

[IHasChicken]

This is a normal Jagex move.

 

"Oh lets just have a decent idea but execute it SO SLOPPILY and with SUCH DISREGARD to our player base that we end up defeating the entire purpose of the update and cause MORE PROBLEMS than it was supposed to solve." *cough* Climbing Boots *cough* Interface Updates *cough*

 

The fact of the matter is, if their botting detection system was better than a bunch of monkies in a room with computers, they'd know the EXACT length of time the person has botted for, and as such can cause a rollback to, not only their stats, but to their quest list and their entire account over that time period.

 

It's like they're scared that by wiping the quests and bank of a caught botter, they might wipe out SOME legitimate wealth/quests that they did. But really, who gives a crap, an action will only be as acceptable as the worse punishment that can be handed out for that action. If people felt like their accounts were at TOTAL risk, as opposed to partial risk, or even some benefits, they'd be scared and understand the consequences.

 

TBH a well executed rollback would be better than even a permanent ban, because it will never "wear off," or "fall through the system."

[Ginger_Warrior]

I have never broken the rules myself, and I'll do anything possible to prove this if asked, let this be clear... But I've known for quite a while now that, if every clan leader out there would kick everyone out of his clan that cheats (from the not-going-to-be-banned-anyways botting, to the undetectable accoutn sharing, all the way to DDoS-ing other people and/or Teamspeak servers), Jagex might as well stop with developping that Clan Support thing...

As a general in HYT chat, I can honestly say I would have no idea if someone inside the chat was botting. Sure, there are some lurkers who never talk, just like in all chats, but it's not like I stalk all of its members just to make sure, on Jagex's behalf, that they're following the rules as an unpaid volunteer. Hell, if Jagex want me to do that, they can pay for a wage and some accomodation in Cambridge, please.

 

Secondly, how is the onus on the clan leader? That's like saying, if an employee of yours falls into some criminal disrepute outside of the work place, you as an employer are responsible for whatever they did. Your idea of accountability is way off the mark, and your suggestions about publicising bank details border on insanity, and almost definitely crosses the legal line in every developed country on planet Earth.

 

In my own clan I've come to terms with this in the form of a compromise... I'll try everything to convince people not to share their account, rwt, you name it, and if I catch them cheating I will defintily report them, as would pretty much most of my clan... But I will not kick them out...

You overstate your importance in this. Whether you kick them or not is irrelevant - they're still botting. All Jagex care about you doing has been highlighted in red.

 

Jagex will punish cheaters according to how they think is sufficient, why should I as a clanleader be any stricter?

Again, you misinterpret your role in Jagex's rule enforcement.

 

But I see no reason why I should kick such a person from my clan if Jagex doesn't kick them from the game...

And again.

 

As a clanleader you're always implicitly asked to have the highest moral standards

Where is this implied? I mean, why is the expectation for clan leaders to follow rules any greater than every other RuneScape player? We all sign the same contract when creating a new account, do we not?

 

Where's the special 'Clan Leader Clause'?

[Ts_Stormrage]

Clearly you haven't the feintest idea how clans work... CLANS... Not the mere chatrooms that are in game, but the ones that have their own IRC, TeamSpeak, Forums and Site... Clans that you rarely see on this board, but all the more on a rivalling fansite... Clans that are almost a seperate community within RuneScape, and some of those clans are themselves a seperate community...

 

I am not talking about an occasional lurker who may or may not be botting that happens to be in your chatroom on RS (it is afterall nothing more than a chatroom, but they've called it a clanchat)...

 

If you knew anything about clans you would know that there is (or used to be) a vague line in the sand between Honor and No-Honor clans... The former is predominantly present, and publicly condemn some of the practices that no-honor clans have stooped to (see one of my previous posts)...

 

I do not think Jagex expects me to remove people from my clanchat if they are botting, nor did I ever state that this would have any impact... But as clan leader, unless you WANT to attract the worst of the worst, are expected to stay on the moral highground at all times... This pretty much means you are implicitly expected to kick those people from your memberlists/forums/channels/teamspeak... But to do that hurts your numbers, and dwindling numbers means less wins in wars with other clans, which in turn means less respect for your clan...

 

So the choice was once given to me and I'll rephrase it to use your metaphore of boss v employee;

 

As a boss, you'll want enough qualified staff to run your business, and if one of them happens to deal in illegal substances on the side, you are expected to fire him if you want your business to be a reputable one... Knowing how big a portion of a clan's memberbase on average breaks the law, I'd be left without any personell to run my business... So I made the chocie to not fire them, but report their illegal activities to the police, and let them deal with it... Should the police (Jagex in this case) decide not to do anything, I do not feel obligated to do anything about the perp myself if he is not harming my business...

 

 

I hope this clears it up for you, if not I'd be happy to explain it further as long as you refrain from pulling line after line apart from my posts and discuss the overall point I am trying to make...

 

On the credit card issue (AGAIN - does anyone read anythign else in the thread other then the latest posts?); I know that was out of line and I apologised... I was quite intoxicated when I wrote that, and I honestly do not believe that it is a good solution... But I would like people to imagine some other solutions that WOULD be legal, and would still put said cheaters in the pillory... In the old days we used to be able to throw rotten vegetables at such people, surely we can find an online equivalent?

[armybuilder]

TBH

 

Your Both coming at it from two different sides of the table.

 

Ginger as i myself am in Lady Heinous chat a fair amount i know there a fair amount in ther that just lurk myself included you would have no idea if such a person was botting or not. And in addition to that although lots of the same people you talk to everyday. You dont know them very well. However i do think your wrong about a clan leader.

A normal Clan leader in any Clan has to lead by example. When there setting a clan up they must have certain goals or certain ideals. If they dont stick to these then the world turns to hell.

As a clan Leader he has certain things he has to enforce. If SHOULD be enforcing Jagex rules. He has it from a different angles in a community that talk to each other 24/7 out of the game and inside.

 

The main difference is though

 

Ginger Warrior is seeing it from an Ingame clan chat which in all honesty is just a group of scapers who talk.

Stormrage sees it as a clan leader that has goals and rules. His enforcing of Jagex's rules tbh is right. There rules, Jagex is clear unable to get rid of botters on there own. Outside input is needed too.+

[Ginger_Warrior]

If a clan actively encourages rule breaking, there's a seperate rule for that, for which we should report for. If a chatroom contains rule breakers, there's a whole host of rules you can report for depending on what they're doing. If I come across a rule breaker in-game, we should report for that. See where I'm going here? The only policing powers normal users have in-game is to notify Jagex of their suspicions.

 

The thing is, you're treating botting as though it's something people accidently fall into until they are enlightened to the error of their ways by peers in whatever clans they're a part of. There's nothing accidental or inadvertent about botting; it's a premeditated choice, and I refuse to believe any amount of peer pressure will change the basis of that choice any time soon. It's naive and pretty ostentatious to think that clan leaders play anything more than a very minor role in the battle against bots. Going back to the employment metaphor, the employer may be condemning the employee's out-of-work actions in sacking them for criminal activity, but given their stable cashflow has now ended, will that make them stop dealing? Doubt it. Expand that question further and ask, "Would it have any impact on drug-dealing in the local community?"... No.

 

If you refuse to endorse botting as a clan leader, have a medal. Amazingly enough, GPs don't encourage heroin use either. That in itself won't even begin to scratch the wider problem of botting.

[Unb34t4bl3]

Pro tip, just ban + reset stats 2 week first time, then perm ban.

 

Fixed. ;)

[das]

 

 

I have never broken the rules myself, and I'll do anything possible to prove this if asked, let this be clear... But I've known for quite a while now that, if every clan leader out there would kick everyone out of his clan that cheats (from the not-going-to-be-banned-anyways botting, to the undetectable accoutn sharing, all the way to DDoS-ing other people and/or Teamspeak servers), Jagex might as well stop with developping that Clan Support thing...

 

There would not be many clans left, and those that were left would not have many members in them... How do I know this? I do because people will not even hesitate anymore to admit they are cheating, and most of them are quite proud of the fact that they havent been caught...

I had no problem booting out cheaters in RSV, KoFH, and asides from BDK in classic, maybe a small smattering of clans promoted/didn't boot cheating scum. DDosing happened in classic, so did sharing, and god knows botting did too. The difference was the community frowned down on it and jagex went after it with an iron fist. Theres still probably some good clans out there that do not cheat and boot scum - You might ask me to name them - and i'll say i'm not in them to speak firsthand and nor have you been in them - with all due respect - you've been in the same clan for like...4? 5? years or longer - a clan that by most of the clan worlds standards is quite small.

 

 

In my own clan I've come to terms with this in the form of a compromise... I'll try everything to convince people not to share their account, rwt, you name it, and if I catch them cheating I will defintily report them, as would pretty much most of my clan... But I will not kick them out...

In my book thats weak

 

 

As a clanleader you're always implicitly asked to have the highest moral standards, but I've known many leaders and even a tenfold of clan members, and the story here is true in many more places than you'd wanna know about...

As a clanleader you choose to make a stand and be different or not. In my book turning a blind eye to cheating makes you no better than Ni or Rot - I've known good clans who cared about image - now a days people are more apathetic, but thats because jagex is - not because the clan world is scum.

 

 

Secondly, how is the onus on the clan leader?

 

Clans like HYT are chat rooms, not clans, lol.

 

I disagree with the insane and sad views of "if jagex doesn't care" i shouldn't - it's your game people - cheating is wrong and if it bothers you then YES take a stand.

 

What is right is not always popular, what is popular is not always right.