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Wilderness and free trade vote! - Now Closed

  

576 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Jagex reintroduce free trade and the old Wilderness?

    • Yes.
      351
    • No.
      169
    • Indifferent ...
      56


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Go to green dragons and red chinchompa's and make a gif.

 

Then we can compare 2010 against 2007 bots.

 

 

It's not that one will replace the other, it's that now we will have both. Jagex have not shown us that they can deal with the bots now, how could they possibly deal with more bots when this update goes through?

 

Judging by what they said they just had a breakthrough in the last month or so with bot technology. I understand people not wanting to read what they say though considering they're too busy worrying about how terrible runescape is going to become.

 

Or it would be based on knowing that Jagex's word in the past has been far from reliable in terms of bots?

 

What exactly is so bad about bots anyway? And why is it worth crippling one of the main aspects of the game just to deter bots?

 

Really though...the current trade/GE/pking system isn't doing anything to help fight bots. Sure, when the system goes away, there might be MORE bots, but I think there are also going to be more players...

 

But yeah I'm still not really understanding what is so terrifying about playing with some bots. I'd like to hear why you think bots are so terrible and also why you think the current trade system does anything against bots, because I currently see a crapload.

The issue was RWT. Many of the credit card companies supporting membership sales threatened to pull out due to people having accounts/credit cards stolen when they were buying gold from unreliable sources.

 

Or at least that is what i remember the whole point being.

 

Bots were the main source of gold for the RWTers, and by getting rid of bots Jagex can reduce RWT.


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would this kill clan 'merching'?

 

It says the removal of price caps, I see this hurting manipulation groups severely.

 

I don't think it will be at all. It will remove taking a useless item and making worth 100k ea. However I remember back in like 05 a group of like 5 players who were quite rich were able to successfully buy out most of the Ancient staves in the game. This was because the only place they dropped from the skeletons in the pyramid and the one you get for free from DT. They manage to bump the price from 85kea to 110kea. By todays standards of manipulating that is not that impressive, but these players did it with only world 2, 6, and 12. Now that the GE will still be available with no floor or cap if clans can pool enough money together they may be able to buy out the stock of a useful item and make it rise a few k gp buy reducing the supply available, but anyone will be able to undercut the clan's selling price when it comes time to dump. So I don't think this will be the end of price manipulation, but now it will be harder, only for the super rich, and will have to be done by exploiting supply and demand rather that exploiting flaws in the GE pricing system.

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Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.


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Expect whips, rune armor, claws, ags, d scims, sharks, super sets, etc to all go way up.


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Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.

But why did you trust jagex when they said the removal of free trade was necessary 3 years ago, but totally dismiss their claims now? Sure, rwt will increase, but if they've added extra detection for rwt, free trade will allow for MUCH easier detection of free money transfer(currently all trades are ''balanced''). Additionally they may have done some research into how to keep people away from the game if they get banned for continuous botting- we can't just factually claim rwt/botting will run rampant, but it's lilkely it will increase slightly. For all the trouble with bots, the amount of high level content that will be released is HUGE(pking, staking and trading expensive items).


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I voted with the "I don't really mind" option. Because, the way I see it, the benefits of free trade are about equal to the nuisance that would be created whenever I try to do wilderness clues. (Just my opinion.)

 

Edit: Regarding their "new bot detection" stuff, I'd rather see it in action before they implement something as massive as this based on what they THINK it can do.


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Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.

But why did you trust jagex when they said the removal of free trade was necessary 3 years ago, but totally dismiss their claims now? Sure, rwt will increase, but if they've added extra detection for rwt, free trade will allow for MUCH easier detection of free money transfer(currently all trades are ''balanced''). Additionally they may have done some research into how to keep people away from the game if they get banned for continuous botting- we can't just factually claim rwt/botting will run rampant, but it's lilkely it will increase slightly. For all the trouble with bots, the amount of high level content that will be released is HUGE(pking, staking and trading expensive items).

 

As I have said, at the time, we could all see how abundant botting was. It was common knowledge that the yews behind Varrock castle were full of bots, 24/7 on all worlds. We could all see the amount of bots and that they could be crippling the game. When Jagex said about how bad it was for them, we all had some sort of experience with the amount of botters to somewhat back up their claim. Now however, they have given us no proof that they can limit bots. On the contrary, the number of bots has been increasing for the last few years. It gives nobody any reason to believe them this time.


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Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.

 

Increase? And?

 

Oh thats right. I forgot that the game can survive perfectly fine when X% of the players are bots. But when free trade comes back, the population will reach its critical ammount of X+5% of bots and an abyssal portal will open up and swallow the Runescape servers for all of eternity. I almost forgot about that.


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What exactly is so bad about bots anyway? And why is it worth crippling one of the main aspects of the game just to deter bots?

 

It's not worth killing another aspect of the game over, but they are both equally important. It's important to preserve pking and skilling. Pking and skilling both need a healthy economy to be successful. In order to do that, we need free trade and a better pking environment. Simultaneously, we also need bots removed or lessening their impact. Free trading will initially increase their appearances, but over time the added pressure will make them crank up their punishments, just as it had before.

 

The thing is, do people want to take that initial hit in the hopes that we can have a healthier, more enjoyable game overall when Jagex is forced to step up their game to older standards? Or will people continue playing a crippled game as we have now because they've learned to adapt and they can't see past the pking association with these updates?

 

Dunno. Tough choice. *cough*


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Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.

 

Increase? And?

 

Oh thats right. I forgot that the game can survive perfectly fine when X% of the players are bots. But when free trade comes back, the population will reach its critical ammount of X+5% of bots and an abyssal portal will open up and swallow the Runescape servers for all of eternity. I almost forgot about that.

 

 

Did I ever say it would collapse? Please, don't put words in my mouth.

 

Runescape is currently full of bots which for many players spoils the game. Why would anybody want to bring more into the game? I think it is a viable opinion to not want an update which will bring more bots and gold farmers into the game.


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As long as they have a way to not go under from credit card fraud or they were lying about that in the first place I don't really care about bots. I still need buyables, maybe the bots will make supplies a lot cheaper for me. :shades:


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I voted for "I don't mind" mainly because I'm used to the game as it is now and quite like it, however I do remember what it was like with Free Trade and the Wilderness and my reaction to its removal so I don't completely oppose it coming back :P

 

I will be interested to see what gets moved around, I guess the ZMI Altar will be used more since the Abyss will be dangerous again. Also will PKers lurk outside the CTs and Corp Lair? What will happen to the Wilderness Penguins too? I guess when they do bring it back there will be some constant tweaking for the few weeks following its reintroduction.


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What exactly is so bad about bots anyway? And why is it worth crippling one of the main aspects of the game just to deter bots?

 

Really though...the current trade/GE/pking system isn't doing anything to help fight bots. Sure, when the system goes away, there might be MORE bots, but I think there are also going to be more players...

 

But yeah I'm still not really understanding what is so terrifying about playing with some bots. I'd like to hear why you think bots are so terrible and also why you think the current trade system does anything against bots, because I currently see a crapload.

 

It's not the bots that made free trade or the wilderness go away. It's what came WITH the bots that did, which was RWT. Jagex could care less if people bot, as it doesn't cause them any harm directly. They only remove bots because the majority of people say bots are cheating, and thus Jagex likes to remove them to keep it's players happy. If nobody cared whether people botted or not, Jagex would never bother to fight against them.

 

RWT on the other hand can cause problems if people start stealing person ID's, credit card info, ect. This is a problem much bigger than just the tiny little game world we play in. RWT'ers steal credit card info, try to pay Jagex with it, and then Jagex has to refund the money once its proven stolen and can possibly even lose contracts with credit card companies. Had things been left the way they were back then, you wouldn't be able to pay for membership with anything besides Pay by Phone, or check.

 

Perhaps now they picked a different strategy in that if you secretly let people bot more, the desire to buy things via RWT'ers is lessened. If you fight to kill bots, you will always lose the RWT war, but if you forget about bots and work to fight RWT directly, you might have bots but possibly no RWT and thus no harm to the company.

 

It's speculation, but perhaps this might work out for them after all.

I voted yes, as I'm willing to risk retuning to the "glory days" once again even if it will drive the game into the ground. If they think they can pull it off, I have enough faith in them to at least try.

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As I have said, at the time, we could all see how abundant botting was. It was common knowledge that the yews behind Varrock castle were full of bots, 24/7 on all worlds. We could all see the amount of bots and that they could be crippling the game. When Jagex said about how bad it was for them, we all had some sort of experience with the amount of botters to somewhat back up their claim. Now however, they have given us no proof that they can limit bots. On the contrary, the number of bots has been increasing for the last few years. It gives nobody any reason to believe them this time.

They didn't prove to us botting was a problem nor have they proved that they can't limit bots. Seeing bots is not what this update is about, it's their impact, and i have not seen proof of yew botting directly changing the game in any special way. If the bots don't make an impact, they have little reason to make them a priority, meanwhile, they are still keeping up their policy of mostly banning money buyers.

 

The other thing, as we know, is that we really need to look at ourselves. If we don't use our money to get an advantage in game, rwt will certainly not increase. I have yet to see any huge rwt protest by those worrying about the increasing amount of rwt-ing they expect this update to deliver.


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As I have said, at the time, we could all see how abundant botting was. It was common knowledge that the yews behind Varrock castle were full of bots, 24/7 on all worlds. We could all see the amount of bots and that they could be crippling the game. When Jagex said about how bad it was for them, we all had some sort of experience with the amount of botters to somewhat back up their claim. Now however, they have given us no proof that they can limit bots. On the contrary, the number of bots has been increasing for the last few years. It gives nobody any reason to believe them this time.

They didn't prove to us botting was a problem nor have they proved that they can't limit bots. Seeing bots is not what this update is about, it's their impact, and i have not seen proof of yew botting directly changing the game in any special way. If the bots don't make an impact, they have little reason to make them a priority, meanwhile, they are still keeping up their policy of mostly banning money buyers.

 

The other thing, as we know, is that we really need to look at ourselves. If we don't use our money to get an advantage in game, rwt will certainly not increase. I have yet to see any huge rwt protest by those worrying about the increasing amount of rwt-ing they expect this update to deliver.

 

They didn't need to prove it, we could see it with our own eyes. We could see how many bots there were, which means when they said RWT was a problem, it was easy to believe. Now though, we have nothing to show they can deal with it as bots have been increasing.

 

For all current purposes, botting = RWT. The bots that will use free trade are those wanting to RWT.


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As I have said, at the time, we could all see how abundant botting was. It was common knowledge that the yews behind Varrock castle were full of bots, 24/7 on all worlds. We could all see the amount of bots and that they could be crippling the game. When Jagex said about how bad it was for them, we all had some sort of experience with the amount of botters to somewhat back up their claim. Now however, they have given us no proof that they can limit bots. On the contrary, the number of bots has been increasing for the last few years. It gives nobody any reason to believe them this time.

They didn't prove to us botting was a problem nor have they proved that they can't limit bots. Seeing bots is not what this update is about, it's their impact, and i have not seen proof of yew botting directly changing the game in any special way. If the bots don't make an impact, they have little reason to make them a priority, meanwhile, they are still keeping up their policy of mostly banning money buyers.

 

The other thing, as we know, is that we really need to look at ourselves. If we don't use our money to get an advantage in game, rwt will certainly not increase. I have yet to see any huge rwt protest by those worrying about the increasing amount of rwt-ing they expect this update to deliver.

 

They didn't need to prove it, we could see it with our own eyes. We could see how many bots there were, which means when they said RWT was a problem, it was easy to believe. Now though, we have nothing to show they can deal with it as bots have been increasing.

 

For all current purposes, botting = RWT. The bots that will use free trade are those wanting to RWT.

Wow "easy to believe".. What kind of attitude is that!

 

Really why can't you believe jagex now, but you could 3 years ago?


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Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

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Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.

 

Increase? And?

 

Oh thats right. I forgot that the game can survive perfectly fine when X% of the players are bots. But when free trade comes back, the population will reach its critical ammount of X+5% of bots and an abyssal portal will open up and swallow the Runescape servers for all of eternity. I almost forgot about that.

 

 

Did I ever say it would collapse? Please, don't put words in my mouth.

 

Runescape is currently full of bots which for many players spoils the game. Why would anybody want to bring more into the game? I think it is a viable opinion to not want an update which will bring more bots and gold farmers into the game.

 

Did you say it would collapse? No. Thats my point. You aren't saying what would happen. All you are saying is that bots are bad and that more bots=more bad. My question is: so what? Clearly close to 90% of RS voters think that trade restrictions ruin the game more than an increase in bots ruins the game.

 

There is no doubt that the update will bring more bots. Even if more bots "hurts" the game, this doesn't matter if the alternative is to have an overly restrictive system that hurts the game more.

 

You can't just look at one part of the situation. Its like saying I give you a choice between being stabbed with a knife or being shot with a gun and all you say is "I don't want to be stabbed, that would hurt." I keep offering you the choice and all you comment on is "No, being stabbed is bad." You have to make the choice. We have the choice between introducing more bots, which will make a current problem a little bit worse, or we can keep the system in place and ruin the game for a huge ammount of people.

 

The choice is between two things that each hurt the game. I think there is sufficient evidence to show that the trade updates are more concerning for people than an increase in the bot population. I think we should hurt the game, instead of continuing to kill the game.

 

Wow "easy to believe".. What kind of attitude is that!

 

Really why can't you believe jagex now, but you could 3 years ago?

 

This


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In response to some of the mind-numbing and boggling things posted here, I am plagued by a myriad of things I want to express yet I am speechless and without time at once, so I can't address most of what I want to here but I will focus on one thing in particular for now:

 

 

Please don't throw us down this avenue again. We had a 20 page thread explaining why bots were a bad thing if you want to go back to it.

 

Botting may be big at the moment, but some forms are limited. I can guarantee that botting will increase. Currently, there may be ways to transfer, but it is limited and not widespread knowledge. Once we get back to a trade system allowing anybody, even without knowledge to RWT, it will increase.

 

Increase? And?

 

Oh thats right. I forgot that the game can survive perfectly fine when X% of the players are bots. But when free trade comes back, the population will reach its critical ammount of X+5% of bots and an abyssal portal will open up and swallow the Runescape servers for all of eternity. I almost forgot about that.

 

 

Did I ever say it would collapse? Please, don't put words in my mouth.

 

Runescape is currently full of bots which for many players spoils the game. Why would anybody want to bring more into the game? I think it is a viable opinion to not want an update which will bring more bots and gold farmers into the game.

 

 

So, you acknowledge that that it won't collapse but lets take away some of the most important priviledges and game mechanices(free-trade) away from the innocent majority to punish (ineffectively) a minority of people? Before, the pretense in 2007 was that it was necessary to implement these measures because the problem was too severe and on the premise that it would adequately stop what was needed to be stopped, but now it is rather revealing that people like you have such a pathological hatred of even a minimal(as compared to what existed before) increase in botting/RWT that you want to punish everyone? I am not one to resort Ad-Hominem but I can't help but say that you really should re-examine your core values if you are really bothered by other people breaking the rules, how do you ever bother living in the real world where crime is rampant? More importantly, it bothers you so much that you are willing to punish millions of innocent and rule abidding players just for the prospect that botting won't increase marginally? Your authorotarian, and possesive(in the sense that you simply can't tolerate the fact that other people are cheating, you want to possess them as far as possible so that they cana adhere to your morality instead of simply letting them make choices and suffer the consequences) mentality is frightening. Again, this is not meant to be an insult--considering your positions are a tepid confession of these tendencies .

 

It essentially comes down to the time honored maxim of trading liberties for securities(though in this case it isn't even that because RWT/Botting does not hinder my in game security), which has proven time and again to be true. I will forget for a moment that that maxim doesn't apply completely, since securities aren't involved but we will throw that away for the sake of argument. I mean, why not just take the mentality of trading liberties for securities one step further--which will inevitably be its logical extreme--why not just turn this into a single player game(you have already taken one of the most important aspects of interaction in a multi-player game)? That way we can eliminate even some more forms of cheating? Again, this mentality does not bode well. You simply can't control people, you have to let them make choices and suffer their consequences, so why punish innocents for the mistakes of innocents--espacially when doing so will NOT result in an equivalent drop in cheating in porportion to the benefits surrendered?

 

You have completely forsaken the cost benefit analysis. If you are going to take away such a fundemental aspect of the game, there better be some results(not that if taking free trade away resulted in a SIGNIFICANT decrease in botting, that the punishment of the majority of innocents for the minority is hardly a viable moral position), but we have already agreed that even that isn't attainable since your position is essentially: "There are a lot of bots already, so why would be want a little bit more?". Now, I added the "little bit" part but we have already demonstrated that botting/RWT are on similar levels in comparison to that of before, so we can only conclude that Free-trade will only result in a marginal increase(assuming we dismiss Jagex's claims of increased measures which you seem to have done somewhat inconsistenly).

 

It isn't really a position that can be morally or even say 'rationally'(I am referring strictly to efficiency here) supported.

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Honestly, I won't believe Jagex's new super botting prevention programs will work until they're put into play and we see them in action. I'm paranoid like that, I refuse to believe it until I see it with my own eyes.

 

Even though I highly doubt Jagex's bot prevention program will work (for long), I'm still voting yes. I may doubt their program is going to work, but I also doubt they wouldn't even dare go down this path unless they have some method of bot prevention that they haven't revealed yet.

 

Nevermind the fact that my one vote won't make a damn difference either way, lol.

 

My view is what ever happens, happens. We'll just have to ride it out one way or the other, or quit. I have no plans of quitting yet (although I don't play nearly as much as I used to), and I plan on getting as much enjoyment out of this game as possible before I get bored of it.

 

I will admit I'm pleased that they're looking into relocation some wildy based activities and such, though. Although I'm unsure where they're going to put it all, if it's not staying in the wild...

 

My apologies if my post is a bit jumbled >.<


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This update is going to re-introduce a lot more bad than good.

 

1) A lot of the really immature, trollish, belligerent PKers are going to return to the game. Many PKers are insufferable to interact with because they act like [bleep]ing e-gangsters. Many of the worst ones left after Jagex "killed the wilderness" because they were too immature to adapt.

 

2) Item scamming, luring, griefing, hacking for profit, and other similar douchebaggery will resurface. Previously, people would only hack others to be sadistic [bleep]s. Now you can profit by hacking someone and stealing their items, so there's a much bigger reason. Be especially careful with account security once this comes to pass.

 

3) While this will get rid of the horrible problem of price manipulators crippling the market flow on certain items, bots are a thousand times more of a nuisance than manipulators. Bots make skilling for cash totally unviable and they make skilling for exp very frustrating. They ruin the prices on all natural resources by flooding the market with them, which will drive more people towards MHing, which makes MY job harder because there is more competition (and there is already extremely tough competition right now).

 

4) There has to be a reason for this decision, and all theories are undesirable. One theory is that they have given up on RS and plan to put it on the back-burner in a year or two (still maintaining their servers so that their cash cow doesn't go away, but just ceasing to update it) while they pimp a new product, and therefore want to draw in as many people as possible (to make as much cash as possible in the next year or two) and make the game as good as possible before they pull support for it. The other theory, as has been touched on already, is that they plan to introduce micropayments for cheap to undercut any potential RWTers. Micropayments inevitably leads down a slippery slope as more and more people will choose to buy their way to high skills/good items instead of playing the game for years to earn the cash for such things. Eventually, the community becomes so corrupted that it becomes impossible to compete with anybody or really accomplish anything without using micropayments yourself.


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It's speculation, but perhaps this might work out for them after all.

I voted yes, as I'm willing to risk retuning to the "glory days" once again even if it will drive the game into the ground. If they think they can pull it off, I have enough faith in them to at least try.

 

This about sums up my feelings also. Would I rather continue to surely destroy the game by letting it continue to be centered around a clumsy trade system, or would I rather RISK destroying the game but possibly breathe new life into it?

 

I choose the option that could help or hurt the game, instead of the option that will surely continue to hurt the game.


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The thing that I don't understand is that the game has held its own since the removal of free trade and such. I could see this as a last resort if the game was about to die and fall to shambles but it really isn't. Jagex is still making great money so I can't pin point their reason for doing this without a plan to combat the reason they took it away in the first place.

 

I put my trust in them when they took it away, I'm forced to put my trust in them again. I've enjoyed the game for the last 3 years so I can't complain either way it goes.


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This update is going to re-introduce a lot more bad than good.

 

1) A lot of the really immature, trollish, belligerent PKers are going to return to the game. Many PKers are insufferable to interact with because they act like [bleep]ing e-gangsters. Many of the worst ones left after Jagex "killed the wilderness" because they were too immature to adapt.

 

See my previous post about clash of cultures. Most PKers also think that YOU are "immature" or otherwise stupid for not loving the old version of the wilderness. When we as humans clash with a culture that we do not understand, we arrogantly tend to percieve the foreign culture as inferior in multiple ways (emotions, intelligence, rationality, etc)

2) Item scamming, luring, griefing, hacking for profit, and other similar douchebaggery will resurface. Previously, people would only hack others to be sadistic [bleep]s. Now you can profit by hacking someone and stealing their items, so there's a much bigger reason. Be especially careful with account security once this comes to pass.

 

Nothing to say about this one.

3) While this will get rid of the horrible problem of price manipulators crippling the market flow on certain items, bots are a thousand times more of a nuisance than manipulators. Bots make skilling for cash totally unviable and they make skilling for exp very frustrating. They ruin the prices on all natural resources by flooding the market with them, which will drive more people towards MHing, which makes MY job harder because there is more competition (and there is already extremely tough competition right now).

 

See other posts in the thread, concerning the fact that botting is STILL as prevelant now as it ever has been. Log in to varrok yews in F2P sometime. Also, we have to give Jagex a little trust that they actually have some new and improved technology to combat this.

 

4) There has to be a reason for this decision, and all theories are undesirable. One theory is that they have given up on RS and plan to put it on the back-burner in a year or two (still maintaining their servers so that their cash cow doesn't go away, but just ceasing to update it) while they pimp a new product, and therefore want to draw in as many people as possible (to make as much cash as possible in the next year or two) and make the game as good as possible before they pull support for it. The other theory, as has been touched on already, is that they plan to introduce micropayments for cheap to undercut any potential RWTers. Micropayments inevitably leads down a slippery slope as more and more people will choose to buy their way to high skills/good items instead of playing the game for years to earn the cash for such things. Eventually, the community becomes so corrupted that it becomes impossible to compete with anybody or really accomplish anything without using micropayments yourself.

 

What about the theory that MMG is highly concerned with customer satisfaction, and that this update has been recieved with mostly high regard and will give many players a renewed interest in the game? I think that theory sounds pretty damn desireable.


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Need assistance in any of these skills? PM me in game, my private chat is always ON

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