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Petition and Fraud? Mistake and Lies? Other? (results on page 4)


Ts_Stormrage

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A combination of A, B, and C

Jagex

A. told the truth about wanting to know how the masses responed to free trade and old wild but they were

C. Incompetent when they made a bogus poll and then they

B. Lied about their incompetence and put up the resulting cover story

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It's a publicity stunt to attract more players.

It's worked marvelously

In what way does that not fall into the category of "lie"?

 

I'll admit I barely looked into this matter, the knowledge I have is basically the two polls...one rigged, the other...half fair-ish.

I didn't see them out right "lie" about anything, that's probably because I didn't look into it.

 

Regardless...it's still a publicity stunt that's working, lies or not.

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LOL, jjjon... It's then the question which one you think weighs heaviest...

 

Also, I editted the first post to encourage people to listen to arguments and possibly change their votes if they change their minds...

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The first poll was a publicity stunt, but it was a mighty good one. Think about how many people spread the word about this. The blokes at Jagex definitely weren't incompetent about this, it was the direct opposite, they have cleverly manipulated the public who haven't yet seen through why they didn't put passwords on the first poll. The result? They've managed to grab the attention of pretty much everyone who left in December '07, and made them take another decision on whether to come back to the game when Free Trade and the old Wilderness returns, and a significant amount of them will say 'yes'. It was a masterpiece of a PR move. What people think about this won't matter in the long term, but the subscription numbers will. This second vote then takes away most of the accusation of incompetence and a lack of sense of a fair vote, as well as being able to say "Well, you voted for it" if anything goes slightly awry with the transition, which it's likely to do.

 

I don't think you could ever say that Jagex lied about anything here either. You couldn't prove it anyway. They simply omitted information from us, at first giving the impression that the first vote was the deciding vote without confirming it, and then revealing a 'Phase 2' and then saying they had it planned all along. They were white lies.

 

They're devious, and they walked near a very fine line. I'd ask Jagex to not come so close to outright lying in the future, but they'll do it anyway. Businesses always do that kind of thing.

~ W ~

 

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LOL, jjjon... It's then the question which one you think weighs heaviest...

 

Also, I editted the first post to encourage people to listen to arguments and possibly change their votes if they change their minds...

 

C with a hint of A and a dollop of "D"/B (Publicity stunt/Lie)

 

:P

 

Hehe

There is not really a definite line for me all I'm hoping for it to come back.

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So you're trying to convince people that Jagex lied... about putting up the poll to get an idea whether or not to move on to phase 2? And that they only wanted money? They did this to generate revenue, etc?

 

Of course they did this to generate revenue, that's what a company does.

 

What's wrong with the way Jagex did this? Since the referendum, accounts must be now logged in to vote yes, no, or indifferent. What's more to complain about? The first poll has no bearing on what the results of the referendum is. And btw, there only needs 3 options, not 4, because free trade and old wilderness is one package, you can't have one without the other.

 

P.S. I love all the subtle comments you use to make Jagex sound like such [wagon]

 

Note that you may always change your vote after listening to arguments (this can be done here, unlike at Jagex' poll)...

 

People don't need to change their mind about this matter. If you read through the 101 pages, it should be clear to you that almost everyone is adamant in their position on this issue.

 

They didn't expect the fraud would happen on such a massive scale, and therefor after 2 days it was quickly changed to a proper poll...

 

And then still not where one could select one of 4 options: yes to both Wild and Trade, yes to wild no to trade, no to wild yes to trade, or no to both...

 

What fraud? That's a really powerful word you're using. The first "poll" isn't even relevant at a time like this, yet you continue to pick on it, while ignoring all the rest of the issue.

The referendum is proper, I don't see anything wrong with it. 3 choices is enough.

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I think it's quite relevant how Jagex treats its customers, but thast may be just my opinion...

 

Just as I posted my opinion, and am asking for other people's opinion... That is all...

 

I'm not out to make Jagex look like a bunch of tools, they do a pretty damn fine job of that themselves...

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MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




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It's a publicity stunt to attract more players.

It's worked marvelously

QFT. I voted C, though.

 

So many people have returned including four of my old friends whom I haven't spoken to in almost three years. I don't like how the poll was done, but I am enjoying its effects so far.

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I think it's quite relevant how Jagex treats its customers, but thast may be just my opinion...

 

Just as I posted my opinion, and am asking for other people's opinion... That is all...

 

I'm not out to make Jagex look like a bunch of tools, they do a pretty damn fine job of that themselves...

 

If you want it set out straight, this isn't the kind of issue that any multiple choice poll can adequately deal with. They made white lies, they manipulated the masses, but they also did what any forward thinking and intelligent games company would have done.

 

And then still not where one could select one of 4 options: yes to both Wild and Trade, yes to wild no to trade, no to wild yes to trade, or no to both...

 

huh.gif They are not issues you can separate. A PK in the old Wilderness rules is identical to a trade whereby one player trades all but x of his/her lowest high alchemy value items to another player directly, and receives nothing in return, where x is his/her item protection value. It is an unbalanced trade. They are one and the same thing.

 

If I didn't know any better, it would seem that you're looking for an argument where there is none.

~ W ~

 

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A combination of A, B, and C

Jagex

A. told the truth about wanting to know how the masses responed to free trade and old wild but they were

C. Incompetent when they made a bogus poll and then they

B. Lied about their incompetence and put up the resulting cover story

 

Best post in this thread. :thumbup:

 

In all honesty it really doesn't matter but it seems pretty obvious that Jagex have already decided to make the implementation and the whole poll business was just a publicity stunt to attract members and support. So if you do look at it from that standpoint they are certainly not incompetent because they know how to get exactly what they want from their players.

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Now that I think about it, it's way easier to appear to be incompetent and do mind numbingly stupid things on a regular basis to lower people's expectations than it is to run their particular business model smoothly on its own merits. If they ever did anything "right", people might start getting ideas.

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I voted that they are telling the truth. Jagex is incompetent, but in this case they definitely knew what they were doing.

 

All they ran the first poll for was to look at the number. They understand that people would enter in random names. I feel sorry for the people that actually believed Jagex was stupid enough to not predict the fraud.

 

Jagex had decided they would bring the Wilderness/Free Trade back way before they ran the poll. They knew exactly what results they would get when they ran the poll. They knew that if they ran the poll and then declined to bring it back, it would put a HUGE dent in their reputation. Many, many people not even remotely interested in Runescape already know about the poll, and pulling out would cause an even greater uproar. This was just a thinly veiled attempt to bring in some revenue. The polls are just to increase anticipation and make it seem more 'legitimate' (and apparently that worked considering how many of the Runescape population feel that this was actually a real poll).

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Just concerning the botting issue, Jagex are either incompetents or liars...take your pick, they can't avoid both accusation.

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They are not issues you can separate. A PK in the old Wilderness rules is identical to a trade whereby one player trades all but x of his/her lowest high alchemy value items to another player directly, and receives nothing in return, where x is his/her item protection value. It is an unbalanced trade. They are one and the same thing.

Yes, but we could have normal item drops on designated PvP worlds rather than bringing back the ability to hunt non-PKers (which is the option I would have voted for). That's a little bit of a separate issue though.

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I think they had already planned to bring wildy and free trade back. They knew that the poll would be positive and that most players would like to see it back. I dont see why they had a petition and then a poll for something they were already going to do since the start...

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I voted other. They didn't lie, they just didn't tell the whole truth.

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I had a response a few weeks ago to the article about the poll, but due to real life, I forgot to post it when the forums came back on line after new years. Here it is:

 

 

I think there is something missing from both of these articles though. The fact that the wilderness and free trade vote was set up the way it was may not have been entirely stupidity by Jagex. If you read the referendum, it says “We received a petition of 1.2M votes in less than 24 hours!” It named the original vote as a petition. Now petitions usually only require a signature. You sign your name in a long list of names, and then you are done. And it is easily possible to keep going back, and signing more names. John Smith, Joe Smith, Jack Smith, etc. This phase one of the vote was exactly that. First there was a petition to gauge the interest, and then the new ruling/law/idea goes before a panel and gets refined and written up fully. Now, this new idea has taken shape, and the changes that might be implemented are released to be ratified in a more controlled and verifiable manner.

 

To the people that claim that it was a bit for a Guinness World Record, it is a silly claim. First of all, being the world record holder of some obscure title would generate pretty much 0 publicity. Second, I doubt that there is even a title for largest internet poll, or largest volume of votes in a specified time frame for some poll, or whatever type of record whoever crafted this rumor claimed Jagex was going for. Thinking that this was some desperate bid for a world record is just silly.

 

 

 

tl;dr:

 

Petitions are by nature easy to abuse, so the fact that this one was is not a surprise. A petition/poll is used all the time to gauge interest, and all are easy to manipulate. This is a known fact about petitions. Claiming it was a World Record attempt is ridiculousness.

 

 

Also, having 4 options on this vote would be rather pointless. Think about the reasons for the removal of free trade and the wilderness/staking. They were removed to attempt to eradicate RWT because Jagex felt it was ruining the game/losing money to credit cards/bad for everyone. Now, both were removed for the same reason. To reintroduce one of these aspects of the game would remove all of the reasons for removal of the other.

 

e.g. Giving back the Wilderness, but not allowing Free Trade would make the removal of Free Trade an utterly pointless and ridiculous action on Jagex' part. None of the reasons given for the removal of Free Trade would be valid, absolutely none of them. And keeping it out while allowing the Wilderness to come back would be insane.

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It seems clear to me that the first "poll" was nothing more that a publicity stunt designed to both generate maximum support for the issue due to the way it was presented (massive signs saying to vote yes with only one option available), and also to get more players back into the game. I don't think that Jagex could be so unbelievably incompetent as to design a whole new page just for this poll when they have been using a perfectly good system for years. They must have known full well that the player base would be largely in favour of this change as numerous players have been screaming for its return these past few years. I'd also be willing to bet that a lot of players who are indifferent on the issue of unbalanced trades and wilderness pking returning are supporting the issue due to the clear mob mentality that has formed. They were already planning on returning things to the way they were, and just wanted to gain the maximum amount of support from the players by acting like they're genuinely willing to take the community's opinions seriously on important issues.

 

As for Jagex's supposed new methods of bot detection, I feel that they're kidding themselves if they think they can control the problem. Regardless of how advanced they make their systems, newer and better bots will always be developed. The number of bots has not been lowered in any noticeable way lately, so they either haven't implemented these miraculously efficient system of theirs or it doesn't work. Not to mention that, if the did have some revolutionary technology for combating bots, why would they advertise it so much? Why not keep it under the radar in order to catch the casual cheater off guard? And do they really think that by telling the community about it that it will be a sufficient preventative measure? I think that Jagex knows what will happen, and they just want to minimize any backlash from the community.

 

I can't say for certain what the future of Runescape will hold, but I have my doubts that it will be another "golden age".

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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

 

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

 

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

 

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.

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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

 

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

 

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

 

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.

 

What makes you think that it wasn't expected? Jagex have never held an open petition on an update to the game before, for this very reason. The only thing that's changed is the widespread interest in the issue. Suddenly they're acting differently, claiming that 'Your voice matters!' and acting like the community should draw together under this issue, and that includes people who don't even remember their passwords. The whole thing is very intentional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was proposed by some PR guru at Jagex.

~ W ~

 

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I believe that:

-Jagex are, on occasion, utter fails

-People who play Runescape are unbelievably easy to scam/trick into beliving things (which is one of the reasons i support the updates, less morons (hopefully))

-The combination of the two above leads to a crazy number of logicless, moronic accusations of Jagex and a lot of Runescape players are genuinely stupid enough to believe them

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They didn't lie. The players lied by submitting runescape users that they did not create or own.

This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do.

 

The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote).

 

In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do?

Isn't this a pretty big moral argument? Like who is responsible if your house is burglarized - the criminal, or you for leaving the door unlocked?

 

The way I see it, you simply can't pin the blame on Jagex for their naïvety and inability to expect people to tell the truth in the petition. They had to adjust when they realized how dishonest the community would be about the whole situation - which should have been expected. So, we can blame Jagex for being shortsighted, but not for lying.

 

What makes you think that it wasn't expected? Jagex have never held an open petition on an update to the game before, for this very reason. The only thing that's changed is the widespread interest in the issue. Suddenly they're acting differently, claiming that 'Your voice matters!' and acting like the community should draw together under this issue, and that includes people who don't even remember their passwords. The whole thing is very intentional, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was proposed by some PR guru at Jagex.

 

If it was a PR stunt, then why not say so afterwards? No they claimed it was just another way of gauging support for the changes... To me it looks like they messed up and didn't want to say so... If they came out right now and said "you knwo what, you're right, we all did this to make the cmmmunity as aware of it as possible" I might be more inclined to your way of thinking... But they didn't, so I'm not...

 

As to the argument whether I should blame Jagex or the people that are abusing it; I'm a paying customer, so I expect the quality product they promised... If Jagex are going to use these polls and petitions as grounds to legitimize rolling back the changes that, in their own words, once threatened to ruin RuneScape altogether, I have every right to question their logic and every right to some answers too...

Former Leader of The Tal Shiar Alliance - An Original Tip.it Clan
Member of the Wilderness Guardians and Founder of the Silent Guardians
Founder of The Conclave - A Tip.it Clan institution
Tip.it Times author (click for all my articles) - When I use the wrong reasons to make the right statement, argue the reason, not the statement.
MSSW4 General - Did we kick your ass too?




Check us out!
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==> No seriously, if you like FREE GP, XP and Dung tokens, as well as Community, Opportunity and above all FUN... <==
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