TIF is bit over-moderated

[Soma2035]

or touchscreen emulating script?

 

By my understanding of a touchscreen emulating script and the posts here explaining in detail the actions performed, I would have to say that using it could endanger your account of being banned, temporarily or otherwise. (In-game, of course.) I do not claim to be an expert in its usage, only the guidelines that have been outlined for staff to follow and the understanding of the (summary in this case) rules as laid out by Jagex indicate that references to said script would be best removed.

 

E: Fixed an incomplete sentence, d'oh.

 

By your understanding, but you have no evidence whatsoever that this has been punished in the past, and many people have already pointed out that these scripts are in accord with Jagex's "one input, one output" policy. A key stroke is a physical input every bit as much as a tap on a touchscreen, and the resulting output is the same.

 

Das is probably right - you should have the channels of communication open, to ask for confirmation from Jagex directly. But at the moment, you hardly have enough evidence to support your claim that using such scripts puts players at risk. Certainly not enough to take action against those who would provide these scripts, unless you are also implying that your policy is now "guilty until proven innocent."

[green9090]

I think some of the confusion over whether it's legal/illegal might arise from the fact that there's more than one program out there, doing things that are similar but not always identical.

 

I've spoken about these programs with Mod Mark L from our macro investigation team.

 

The basic point is that you're OK as long as you carry out one action on your input device for every action in-game.

 

"An action" in this context is basically one of two things:

* Moving the pointer

* Clicking on something

 

We don't really care/need to know what kind of input device you use. Could be a traditional mouse, a trackball, a touchpad, a graphics tablet, a touch screen... or your computer keyboard with MouseKeys enabled.

 

The key thing is that every time you want the on-screen pointer to move somewhere, you must make a movement on/with your input device that exactly corresponds with the on-screen movement. And every time you want to click on something on-screen, you must carry out a click using your device.

 

MouseKeys is the name for a Microsoft Windows utility that comes with Windows and is usually found in the Accessibility section.

 

It uses the 2, 4, 6 and 8 keys on the numeric keypad to move the mouse pointer, and the 5 key (IIRC) to click.

This is fine because it doesn't allow the cursor to jump to a pre-defined spot. So for example, if you want to move the cursor to a point above where it currently is, you need to hold the 'up' key (or press it repeatedly)until the cursor is where you want it.

 

Some other programs appear similar but they do allow the player to make one keypress that will 'jump' the cursor to a pre-defined spot and then click there. This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

 

Mod Mark L: "If it allows a mouse movement and a click with a single key press, then it breaks the one input/one output guideline."

 

Hope this helps,

-JH

 

Of particular note is the fact that he specifically says touchscreens and similar are allowed. Thus, a program emulating a touchscreen in jumping straight to a point would ALSO be allowed, as the input would be indistinguishable from touchscreen input. So long as you aren't jumping and clicking in a single keystroke, a script would follow these guidelines perfectly.

 

The onus is definitely on the TIF admins if they want to claim that a script that finds a point on the screen and jumps there is illegal, as this post very clearly puts it in the clear.

 

ALL scripts currently posted on THE FORBIDDEN FORUMS follow these guidelines. The only rules being broken are rules imagined by the TIF mods who do not fully understand Jagex's macroing guidelines.

[obfuscator]

I think some of the confusion over whether it's legal/illegal might arise from the fact that there's more than one program out there, doing things that are similar but not always identical.

 

I've spoken about these programs with Mod Mark L from our macro investigation team.

 

The basic point is that you're OK as long as you carry out one action on your input device for every action in-game.

 

"An action" in this context is basically one of two things:

* Moving the pointer

* Clicking on something

 

We don't really care/need to know what kind of input device you use. Could be a traditional mouse, a trackball, a touchpad, a graphics tablet, a touch screen... or your computer keyboard with MouseKeys enabled.

 

The key thing is that every time you want the on-screen pointer to move somewhere, you must make a movement on/with your input device that exactly corresponds with the on-screen movement. And every time you want to click on something on-screen, you must carry out a click using your device.

 

MouseKeys is the name for a Microsoft Windows utility that comes with Windows and is usually found in the Accessibility section.

 

It uses the 2, 4, 6 and 8 keys on the numeric keypad to move the mouse pointer, and the 5 key (IIRC) to click.

This is fine because it doesn't allow the cursor to jump to a pre-defined spot. So for example, if you want to move the cursor to a point above where it currently is, you need to hold the 'up' key (or press it repeatedly)until the cursor is where you want it.

 

Some other programs appear similar but they do allow the player to make one keypress that will 'jump' the cursor to a pre-defined spot and then click there. This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

 

Mod Mark L: "If it allows a mouse movement and a click with a single key press, then it breaks the one input/one output guideline."

 

Hope this helps,

-JH

 

Of particular note is the fact that he specifically says touchscreens and similar are allowed. Thus, a program emulating a touchscreen in jumping straight to a point would ALSO be allowed, as the input would be indistinguishable from touchscreen input. So long as you aren't jumping and clicking in a single keystroke, a script would follow these guidelines perfectly.

 

The onus is definitely on the TIF admins if they want to claim that a script that finds a point on the screen and jumps there is illegal, as this post very clearly puts it in the clear.

 

Funny that the quote also says "it is fine because it doesn't allow the cursor to jump to a pre-defined spot".

[DarkDude]

 

It uses the 2, 4, 6 and 8 keys on the numeric keypad to move the mouse pointer, and the 5 key (IIRC) to click.

This is fine because it doesn't allow the cursor to jump to a pre-defined spot. So for example, if you want to move the cursor to a point above where it currently is, you need to hold the 'up' key (or press it repeatedly)until the cursor is where you want it.

 

Some other programs appear similar but they do allow the player to make one keypress that will 'jump' the cursor to a pre-defined spot and then click there. This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

 

Did you even read that part of the quote you posted?

[Kimberly]

By your understanding, but you have no evidence whatsoever that this has been punished in the past, and many people have already pointed out that these scripts are in accord with Jagex's "one input, one output" policy.

 

Well, no. The way you've worded it kind of assumes that we've gone on a wing and a prayer and our own personal vendetta. :P However, no staff would've removed these things without verification first. It wasn't something done lightly. And I'll direct you to:

 

Jagex have been contacted regarding the scripts (with examples provided) and yes, they confirmed that is against the rules.

 

Which we (supers and under) found out through the admins, hence why the rest of the staff has taken action on these links. Believe it or not the staff is interested in maintaining a level of quality, and we do care about users...regardless of whether or not they've built their own forum elsewhere, or a castle, or a Black Panther rebel group what have you. And we do appreciate feedback. But in this case, there's nothing we can do. Again, it's an issue better suited in being taken up with Jagex directly.

 

EDIT: Rereading the posts down below, it seems like there's a large issue in how this is explained rather than whether or not it violates the rules. The ambiguity and facts will be shored up and more clearly explained if future incidents occur. Thanks for the feedback regarding it, though it was a little painful to decipher. XD But as far as removing the links to the site that hosts these scripts in question, they will sadly still be removed while the admins of both TIF and TEF work it out.

[green9090]

ITT mods and admins can't read

 

This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

[Andy]

I think some of the confusion over whether it's legal/illegal might arise from the fact that there's more than one program out there, doing things that are similar but not always identical.

 

I've spoken about these programs with Mod Mark L from our macro investigation team.

 

The basic point is that you're OK as long as you carry out one action on your input device for every action in-game.

 

"An action" in this context is basically one of two things:

* Moving the pointer

* Clicking on something

 

We don't really care/need to know what kind of input device you use. Could be a traditional mouse, a trackball, a touchpad, a graphics tablet, a touch screen... or your computer keyboard with MouseKeys enabled.

 

The key thing is that every time you want the on-screen pointer to move somewhere, you must make a movement on/with your input device that exactly corresponds with the on-screen movement. And every time you want to click on something on-screen, you must carry out a click using your device.

 

MouseKeys is the name for a Microsoft Windows utility that comes with Windows and is usually found in the Accessibility section.

 

It uses the 2, 4, 6 and 8 keys on the numeric keypad to move the mouse pointer, and the 5 key (IIRC) to click.

This is fine because it doesn't allow the cursor to jump to a pre-defined spot. So for example, if you want to move the cursor to a point above where it currently is, you need to hold the 'up' key (or press it repeatedly)until the cursor is where you want it.

 

Some other programs appear similar but they do allow the player to make one keypress that will 'jump' the cursor to a pre-defined spot and then click there. This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

 

Mod Mark L: "If it allows a mouse movement and a click with a single key press, then it breaks the one input/one output guideline."

 

Hope this helps,

-JH

 

Of particular note is the fact that he specifically says touchscreens and similar are allowed. Thus, a program emulating a touchscreen in jumping straight to a point would ALSO be allowed, as the input would be indistinguishable from touchscreen input. So long as you aren't jumping and clicking in a single keystroke, a script would follow these guidelines perfectly.

 

The onus is definitely on the TIF admins if they want to claim that a script that finds a point on the screen and jumps there is illegal, as this post very clearly puts it in the clear.

 

Funny that the quote also says "it is fine because it doesn't allow the cursor to jump to a pre-defined spot".

and straight after that's said he says the reasoning behind that

 

"This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input. "

The issue isn't moving to a predefined spot, it's moving and clicking in one input. re-read the damn post.

[DarkDude]

ITT mods and admins can't read

 

This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

 

Which is something which has been argued is fine within this thread as it emulates a touch screen? Make up your minds!

 

And above that it says something is fine because it doesn't move to a predefined point and thus implying that it's against the rules to move to a predefined point.

[obfuscator]

It's irrellevant anyway seeing as Jagex directly stated (given the scripts that caused this in the first place) that they were illegal.

[green9090]

He says it's illegal to move and then click the mouse in one keystroke. How is this a difficult concept?

 

Edit @ above: would those be the scripts that have already been deleted from our forum?

[muuuuuuuuuu]

Jagex have been contacted regarding the scripts (with examples provided) and yes, they confirmed that is against the rules.

 

You're also acting like that's the only point of contention about the scripts also, there's lots more wrong with some of them than just moving to a specific point.

 

Is there any way you can provide proof to back this up? I just have a hard time taking anyone's, not just your, word on a topic in such a grey area, especially since I have heard conflicting information from multiple sources.

[Andy]

It's irrellevant anyway seeing as Jagex directly stated (given the scripts that caused this in the first place) that they were illegal.

Is that in reference to an email from jagex or the example posted a few posts up? If its an email i'd love to see some actual proof of that, because of right now it's hard to really take your word on anything.

 

 

On the topic of the script that was posted that started this all, they were never supported in the first place. You (the tif admins/mods) started removing signatures 3 hours after the post was made and before grimy had even responded to it. You expect a newly formed forum to have instant moderators that can stop rulebreaking posts straightaway? if the tif mods weren't camping on grimy's forums waiting for this to happen, none of this crap would have happened.

[das]

Jagex have been contacted regarding the scripts (with examples provided) and yes, they confirmed that is against the rules.

 

You're also acting like that's the only point of contention about the scripts also, there's lots more wrong with some of them than just moving to a specific point.

 

Is there any way you can provide proof to back this up? I just have a hard time taking anyone's, not just your, word on a topic in such a grey area, especially since I have heard conflicting information from multiple sources.

 

 

Unless things have changed quickly, It should be simple enough to paste the reply from Jagex.

[Andy]

ITT mods and admins can't read

 

This isn't OK because it's getting multiple actions (move then click) out of one player input.

 

And above that it says something is fine because it doesn't move to a predefined point and thus implying that it's against the rules to move to a predefined point.

This doesnt even make any sense. can you word it better please, because I honestly can not understand the post.

[Kimberly]

You (the tif admins/mods) started removing signatures 3 hours after the post was made and before grimy had even responded to it. You expect a newly formed forum to have instant moderators that can stop rulebreaking posts straightaway? if the tif mods weren't camping on grimy's forums waiting for this to happen, none of this crap would have happened.

 

Well I think that's why Tripsis eventually contacted TheAncient (and now if not soon to be Rocked and Grimy), to start sorting these things out.

 

Clearly I can't speak for everyone but prior to the registration restrictions, I enjoyed reading about the potential research topics and so on. I wasn't 'camping' at all, merely following the interesting work. It's again indicating a sort of vendetta. And I can see, via Nifflin's feedback, where it might seem like that, what with the link removal, but that's a policy that will hopefully be shored up and made more clear within a reasonable timeframe. I will say now that I'm afraid to register on your forums to read the great work done there, because it seems as one negative action is tarnishing the whole staff...and that's not something I'm willing to do, as much as I'd love to be able to view your community, speaking as a user and not a staff member.

[DarkDude]

Actually, the first removals of signatures came over 2 weeks after posts which break the rules were posted. There was plenty of time to remove the offending content.

 

Again, the part with moving to a specific point is not the entirety of the scripts being bad, there's more in other scripts which is also against the rules.

 

And to Cheeze, let me put it this way. If I say your post is fine because it doesn't include swearing. It would be safe to assume that a post containing swearing wouldn't be fine.

 

Same here, They say that mouse keys is fine because it doesn't move to a specific point and thus something which DOES move to a specific point is NOT fine. Not the most difficult to follow logic I thought but it seems I'm wrong there.

[Dragonlordjl]

Actually, the first removals of signatures came over 2 weeks after posts which break the rules were posted. There was plenty of time to remove the offending content.

 

Again, the part with moving to a specific point is not the entirety of the scripts being bad, there's more in other scripts which is also against the rules.

 

And to Cheeze, let me put it this way. If I say your post is fine because it doesn't include swearing. It would be safe to assume that a post containing swearing wouldn't be fine.

 

Same here, They say that mouse keys is fine because it doesn't move to a specific point and thus something which DOES move to a specific point is NOT fine. Not the most difficult to follow logic I thought but it seems I'm wrong there.

The point of contention here is that you're misinterpreting what Jagex defined:

 

Stuff that moves to a specific point is only illegal if it also clicks in the same motion. If you have to hit the "hotkey" twice-- once to move the mouse and again to click-- it's within the rules.

[DarkDude]

Actually, the first removals of signatures came over 2 weeks after posts which break the rules were posted. There was plenty of time to remove the offending content.

 

Again, the part with moving to a specific point is not the entirety of the scripts being bad, there's more in other scripts which is also against the rules.

 

And to Cheeze, let me put it this way. If I say your post is fine because it doesn't include swearing. It would be safe to assume that a post containing swearing wouldn't be fine.

 

Same here, They say that mouse keys is fine because it doesn't move to a specific point and thus something which DOES move to a specific point is NOT fine. Not the most difficult to follow logic I thought but it seems I'm wrong there.

The point of contention here is that you're misinterpreting what Jagex defined:

 

Stuff that moves to a specific point is only illegal if it also clicks in the same motion. If you have to hit the "hotkey" twice-- once to move the mouse and again to click-- it's within the rules.

 

Want me to quote you where someone stated in this thread that moving to a specific point and clicking in one movement is fine as it's emulating a touch screen?

[green9090]

Actually, the first removals of signatures came over 2 weeks after posts which break the rules were posted. There was plenty of time to remove the offending content.

 

Again, the part with moving to a specific point is not the entirety of the scripts being bad, there's more in other scripts which is also against the rules.

 

This is not true. The problem here is that you are misinformed on Jagex's macro policy. Stop making yourself sole arbiter of Jagex law and post some damn evidence if you really did speak to Jagex.

 

And to Cheeze, let me put it this way. If I say your post is fine because it doesn't include swearing. It would be safe to assume that a post containing swearing wouldn't be fine.

 

Same here, They say that mouse keys is fine because it doesn't move to a specific point and thus something which DOES move to a specific point is NOT fine. Not the most difficult to follow logic I thought but it seems I'm wrong there.

 

Would be a fair assumption if he didn't go on to say specifically what he meant by saying that jumping to a space and clicking is not allowed- namely that it violates the 1 input = 1 output rule.

[DarkDude]

Would be a fair assumption if he didn't go on to say specifically what he meant by saying that jumping to a space and clicking is not allowed- namely that it violates the 1 input = 1 output rule.

 

If that's the case then why even include jumping to a space at all? Why not just moving and clicking? Seems a strange thing to go into detail about and even mention at all if there was no issue with moving to a specific point.

[green9090]

Would be a fair assumption if he didn't go on to say specifically what he meant by saying that jumping to a space and clicking is not allowed- namely that it violates the 1 input = 1 output rule.

 

If that's the case then why even include jumping to a space at all? Why not just moving and clicking? Seems a strange thing to go into detail about and even mention at all if there was no issue with moving to a specific point.

Because:

Some other programs appear similar but they do allow the player to make one keypress that will 'jump' the cursor to a pre-defined spot and then click there

 

He was warning against specific programs in which you press a key and it automatically jumps and clicks which Jagex was aware of. This does not mean that EVERY SINGLE THING ABOUT THE PROGRAM IS ILLEGAL, but rather that the specific thing he pointed out as being illegal was illegal.

 

It's hilarious to me that several people have asked to see Jagex's email and you ignore them all. I don't believe this email exists. What a sad lie.

[DarkDude]

Again, why not just say "Move and click in one key press" explicitly mentioning the jumping to a point as part of the problem indicates that it is indeed wrong. His point on clicking as well as moving in one key press is in addition to the not jumping to a point.

 

Badly written perhaps, but that's what he's saying.

[Vex]

Is jagex aware that by tweaking the settings and speed of windows mousekey settings, moves the mouse X amount of pixels in one press.

 

You are arguing that windows mousekeys doesn't move the coordinate to a pre-defined spot, except when you adjust the acceleration and speed of the mouse - it does. It moves X pixels each time u press say numpad 2. You then adjust the speed/acceleration for it to jump further/less (which is a certain amount of pixels)

 

What is the difference between using a sliding scale, and using a specific number of pixels to move. If you want to you could put a 5 pixel tolerance for the cursor to move to.

 

If Jagex are under the illusion that windows mousekeys are ok because you have to hold the numpad key down to "move the mouse", they're utterly wrong lol. You just press the button once and it moves X pixels.

 

So a question is, since 1input/output has been confirmed - moving a specified number of pixels must be ok, since you can do that with windows mousekeys.

 

Go into your accessibility options and try it out for yourself. It doesn't move the cursor in a fluid motion - it jumps, just like the simulated AHK script does. What's the difference between one being made by microsoft, one by an open source group.

[Andy]

Actually, the first removals of signatures came over 2 weeks after posts which break the rules were posted. There was plenty of time to remove the offending content.

Which scripts are you even talking about?

[obfuscator]

Actually, the first removals of signatures came over 2 weeks after posts which break the rules were posted. There was plenty of time to remove the offending content.

Which scripts are you even talking about?

They've been pmed to theAncient and will be to grimy/rocked shortly.

 

Surely you understand we can't post them here.