Jump to content

JAGEX LIMITED v.IMPULSE SOFTWARE, ERIC SNELLMAN, and MARK SNELLMAN


Mercifull

Recommended Posts

Is there room to appeal and be successful when you're entirely in the wrong?

Arguable. I do believe bot developing is risky business due to getting banned, the very rare successful lawsuit, etc... But I would never say it's entirely wrong. That's just my view, though, and'd be happy to say my reasons. :P.

09144a99bb.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 261
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Is there room to appeal and be successful when you're entirely in the wrong?

Arguable. I do believe bot developing is risky business due to getting banned, the very rare successful lawsuit, etc... But I would never say it's entirely wrong. That's just my view, though, and'd be happy to say my reasons. :P.

 

It is entirely wrong in runescape though.

In rs specific terms there ARE bot prevention measures in place which means subverting them to develop a bot is very clearly illegal under DMCA.

Plv6Dz6.jpg

Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

Dragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is there room to appeal and be successful when you're entirely in the wrong?

Arguable. I do believe bot developing is risky business due to getting banned, the very rare successful lawsuit, etc... But I would never say it's entirely wrong. That's just my view, though, and'd be happy to say my reasons. :P.

 

It is entirely wrong in runescape though.

In rs specific terms there ARE bot prevention measures in place which means subverting them to develop a bot is very clearly illegal under DMCA.

 

how about bug abuse?

its against rs terms and Jagex actively patches bugs ingame.

how about item scamming?

etc.

 

They are entirely different.

They are in-game breaches of in-game rules; yes they are not working as intended but you are not forcibly subverting measures specifically put in place to stop that precise event from happening.

Yes scamming is against the rules and there are many warnings about it, however you are not breaking anything or subverting anything when you scam if its all done within the game. If you lure someone to the wildy to kill them for their stuff as a scam it's agaisnt the rules of the game but you haven't done anything to subvert technological aspects of the game code.

Equally purposefully abusing a bug is an in-game rule breach. But as the bug exists within the game and its enact entirely within the games normal functions you haven't done anything to subvert preventative measures.

 

Developing a bot goes with the intention of specifically subverting and tampering with the raw game code to access data/input data that you should not be able to and is subverting measures specifically in place to try and stop this occurring; which is why it is illegal under the DMCA

Plv6Dz6.jpg

Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

Dragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That one would be a grey area. The fact it's all in-game makes it "ok" (in theory, obviously not so much in practice) but the fact your are bypassing something theoretically could be caught up by DMCA.

But this is off-topic and needlessly complicating the issue.

 

The fact remains developing botting software for runescape is very obviously illegal as they have technological measures in place to prevent botting; thus meaning you breach a law that exists in the DMCA by developing the bots.

Plv6Dz6.jpg

Operation Gold Sparkles :: Chompy Kills ::  Full Profound :: Champions :: Barbarian Notes :: Champions Tackle Box :: MA Rewards

Dragonkin Journals :: Ports Stories :: Elder Chronicles :: Boss Slayer :: Penance King :: Kal'gerion Titles :: Gold Statue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An update: it looks like http://rscheata.net, http://oembots.com and http://impsoft.net have now been shut down. The folks at RSCA did create a new website at http://rscheata.us, but it will merely be a gaming forum, not a botting site.

 

In any case, I hope Jagex starts going after gold farmers next. :D

 

Edit: another well-known botting site, http://rsbots.net, now returns a blank page. It's not one of the sites named in the lawsuit, but I guess they also decided to shut down to prevent legal problems. IMO, a lawsuit is far more effective than any technical means of stopping botting.

ixfd64.png

 

ARENAscape:

 

Baratus [AS] max hit: 166 with Moon Battle Hammer

ixfd64 [AS] max hit: 116 with (untitled spell #2)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

powerbot returning a blank page too... They weren't involved in the lawsuit either.

612d9da508.png

Mercifull.png

Mercifull <3 Suzi

"We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12

Link to comment
Share on other sites

powerbot returning a blank page too... They weren't involved in the lawsuit either.

Just checked and it's still up, though they still haven't published the bot that they appearantly got working. Obviously for legal issues.

Not working for me. Wonder if they are showing different stuff to different IP ranges?

612d9da508.png

Mercifull.png

Mercifull <3 Suzi

"We don't want players to be able to buy their way to success in RuneScape. If we let players start doing this, it devalues RuneScape for others. We feel your status in real-life shouldn't affect your ability to be successful in RuneScape" Jagex 01/04/01 - 02/03/12

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

>Bring back free trade, people buy membrship

>Bot makers start a business again

>Jagex sues bot makers.

Win. This money had better go towards new content, though I assume a fair amount went to the costs of this case.

Clever work jagex.

 

that's funny because last time i checked, when botters run runescape and you lose them all its not a win. when runescape is run by several botting communities and you lose all of them you lose business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The rscheata.net domain has been transferred to Jagex: http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/rscheata.net

 

The other two are still registered under the Snellman brothers, though.

ixfd64.png

 

ARENAscape:

 

Baratus [AS] max hit: 166 with Moon Battle Hammer

ixfd64 [AS] max hit: 116 with (untitled spell #2)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From a legal standpoint, I wanted the bot makers to win. I think the access clause of the DMCA as used here is asinine, and a result of the failure of the courts to properly define virtual goods, accounts, and the like. There is far too much legal ambiguity out there currently. I also find it interesting, but understandable, that although the Jagex TOS say all court cases related to RS would be held in British courts, this case was held in Mass. As well, I find it asinine that the court did not dismiss the case, as the defendants requested, due to their being in Flordia and having no offices or personnel in Mass, or even move the case to the court in Florida.

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/36773265/Jagex-Ltd-v-Impulse-Software-D-Mass-Aug-16-2010

 

On further attention, Jagex's attempted use of the DMCA was declared "untenable" by the court.

 

I honestly think the only reason Jagex won was because they were able to afford better lawyers. Personally, I think that the case was itself untenable.

 

Note, however, this is simply the opinion of a pre law student. I don't have the knowledge the court's had, but I believe my stance is still more defensible then most on these forums. This is not to argue the merits of the outcome of the case, simply the merits of the case itself.

Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The rscheata.net domain has been transferred to Jagex: http://www.networksolutions.com/whois-search/rscheata.net

 

The other two are still registered under the Snellman brothers, though.

 

healthymmo.biz - MMO Health LLC

healthymmo.com - MMO Health LLC

healthymmo.info - MMO Health LLC

healthymmo.mobi - MMO Health LLC

healthymmo.net - MMO Health LLC

healthymmo.org - MMO Health LLC

rspal.com - MMO Health LLC

rspal.info - MMO Health LLC

rspal.net - MMO Health LLC

rspal.org - MMO Health LLC

rspals.com - MMO Health LLC

rspals.info - MMO Health LLC

rspals.net - MMO Health LLC

rspals.org - MMO Health LLC

(MMO Health LLC is a Florida-registered Limited Liability Company which was created by Mark Snellman on March 29th, 2011.)

 

Impulse Software domains:

 

afkplayer.net - Impulse Software

afkplayer2.net - Impulse Software

d3cheating.com - Impulse Software

diablo3cheating.com - Impulse Software

impsoft.biz - Impulse Software

impsoft.info - Impulse Software

mmohealth.com - Impulse Software

rscheata.com - Impulse Software

rscheata.info - Impulse Software

rscheata.net - Impulse Software

rscheata.org - Impulse Software

sc2cheating.com - Impulse Software

scripterland.com - Impulse Software

scripterland.net - Impulse Software

scripterland.org - Impulse Software

 

All belong to Jagex now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From a legal standpoint, I wanted the bot makers to win. I think the access clause of the DMCA as used here is asinine, and a result of the failure of the courts to properly define virtual goods, accounts, and the like. There is far too much legal ambiguity out there currently. I also find it interesting, but understandable, that although the Jagex TOS say all court cases related to RS would be held in British courts, this case was held in Mass. As well, I find it asinine that the court did not dismiss the case, as the defendants requested, due to their being in Flordia and having no offices or personnel in Mass, or even move the case to the court in Florida.

 

http://www.scribd.co...ass-Aug-16-2010

 

On further attention, Jagex's attempted use of the DMCA was declared "untenable" by the court.

 

I honestly think the only reason Jagex won was because they were able to afford better lawyers. Personally, I think that the case was itself untenable.

 

Note, however, this is simply the opinion of a pre law student. I don't have the knowledge the court's had, but I believe my stance is still more defensible then most on these forums. This is not to argue the merits of the outcome of the case, simply the merits of the case itself.

 

Oh wow, I had forgotten about that legal decision back in '10. This was back when they hadn't properly protected their IP in the United States. I would admit though, had Jagex properly protected their product and their name in the States, they would have stood a better chance. Even then, the waiting of over 2 years to file a suit is questionable regardless...

 

Gj Jagex.

 

Pff are they gonna nuke again soon?

 

 

Where are all the people who said Jagex would lose :P

 

Jagex has merely won a battle. They haven't won the war yet. In fact, if the bot nuke and subsequent follow-ups to the bot nuke are any precursor, this war just got a whole lot worse. It's been going on for as long as RuneScape has been around, and Jagex hasn't been ahead of the curve - either technologically or legally - not since the time between the bot nuke and Runefest.

Linux User/Enthusiast Full-Stack Software Engineer | Stack Overflow Member | GIMP User
s1L0U.jpg
...Alright, the Elf City update lured me back to RS over a year ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the court actually said that Jagex didn't have a copyright and as such attempting to use the access portion of the DMCA was untenable.

Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, with another large nuke coming soon, is it too much too late? If they get taken down with the same vigour as before (or more?) will it be worth the effort to try and get them working again?

Want to be my friend? Look under my name to the left<<< and click the 'Add as friend' button!

zqXeV.jpg

Big thanks to Stevepole for the signature!^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, with another large nuke coming soon, is it too much too late? If they get taken down with the same vigour as before (or more?) will it be worth the effort to try and get them working again?

 

As long as its possible, yes.

Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note, however, this is simply the opinion of a pre law student.

 

"Pre-Law"? So you're not even a law student yet?

 

Anyone else reminded of this scene:

 

Animal House:

 

Otter: Point of parliamentary procedure!

Hoover: Don't screw around, they're serious this time!

Otter: Take it easy, I'm pre-law.

Boon: I thought you were pre-med.

Otter: What's the difference?

slobdf.jpg

Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, evil Zoot!

Oh, she is a naughty person, and she must pay the penalty!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Law is complicated by design. Lawyers and politicians design it this way so that they can continue to give themselves money. The public can't ever understand it all, because there are simply *too many* regulations and laws and whatever else on the books to actually make sense of any of it.

Serena_Sedai.png
Maxed since Sunday, January 9th, 2014
Completionist since Wednesday, June 4th, 2014

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Note, however, this is simply the opinion of a pre law student.

 

"Pre-Law"? So you're not even a law student yet?

 

Anyone else reminded of this scene:

 

Animal House:

 

Otter: Point of parliamentary procedure!

Hoover: Don't screw around, they're serious this time!

Otter: Take it easy, I'm pre-law.

Boon: I thought you were pre-med.

Otter: What's the difference?

 

1. I don't see how this is at all germane. If I was a law student currently I doubt I'd have time to post on a forum about a game I no longer play.

 

2. My opinion is based off legal research into the case, including reading the court documents. I doubt very few other people on this thread have done so. Instead, most of the posts are simple baseless opinions. At least I defend my stance.

 

3. Whats your point?

Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the court actually said that Jagex didn't have a copyright and as such attempting to use the access portion of the DMCA was untenable.

 

I don't seem to understand why such would be ruled? As far as I know, any piece of "art" is copyrighted, be it code or a book or a simple poem/image. While obviously the copyright may have not been registered, the work is still considered so. The bot makers infringe on the copyrights Jagex has. It would be similar to me rewriting Harry Potter and selling it, wouldn't it? I took the work of someone else and am now using it to profit, with minimal changes. This is not a parody and it's surely not covered under fair use.

 

(I am genuinely confused on this; not trolololing or anything).

ozXHe7P.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the court actually said that Jagex didn't have a copyright and as such attempting to use the access portion of the DMCA was untenable.

 

I don't seem to understand why such would be ruled? As far as I know, any piece of "art" is copyrighted, be it code or a book or a simple poem/image. While obviously the copyright may have not been registered, the work is still considered so. The bot makers infringe on the copyrights Jagex has. It would be similar to me rewriting Harry Potter and selling it, wouldn't it? I took the work of someone else and am now using it to profit, with minimal changes. This is not a parody and it's surely not covered under fair use.

 

(I am genuinely confused on this; not trolololing or anything).

 

Because the bot program was NOT a copy of Runescape. Rather the argument was that the bot program violated the DMCA (digital millennium copyright act) access clause, which references how certain proprietary systems are accessed in copyrighted works. Since RS wasn't copyrighted, this did not apply.

 

"It criminalizes production and dissemination of technology, devices, or services intended to circumvent measures (commonly known as digital rights management or DRM) that control access to copyrighted works"

 

DMCA can be found here http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf

Stonewall337.png
[hide=Drops]Araxxor Eye x1 Leg pieces x2
GWD: 5000 Addy bar Steam B Staff x3 Z Spear x6 Sara. Hilt x2 Bandos Hilt x2 (LS, Solo)SS x6 (1 LS)
Tormented Demons: Shard x6 Slice x5 Claws x9 Limbs x3
DKS: Archer x21 Warrior x31 Berserker x30 Axe x51[/hide]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.