The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Saradomin_Mage]

The new combat level is ridiculous if it doesn't reflect prayer/summoning/hp and such. The formula also doesn't give a good image of how strong someone is.

The no-xp rule is stupid as well. Right now there's one monster worth training on, and that's the dagannoth sentinel, which luckily is level 193. So I guess if that stays at 170+ combat there's no problem. But slayer will be a problem. Right now the 170+ combat monsters somewhat worth killing are dark beasts, ice strykes, iron/steel/mith/black dragons, black demons. There's mutated velds, spectres, dagannoth, hellhounds, suqah etc. way below that level. Of course a rebalance might put these creatures at a higher level but good slayer monsters are generally low defence.

 

I see a lot of potential to mess this up now :(.

 

Edit: Nevermind, ninja'd by above post. Guess limited xp is alright, but it better be only a slight cut.

Depends on how much they change cannons too :P

[Demoli]

The new combat formula looks increadibly simple with a lot fo room to screw up. The only way i can see them avoiding total confusion is if they place a symbol enxt to the level which demonstrates the highest skill of the player.

 

And the less than 30 level monster giving no exp? Complete and utter bull. It will destroy slayer unless they buf a lot of npc's levels.

[Platinum_Myr]

The new combat level is ridiculous if it doesn't reflect prayer/summoning/hp and such. The formula also doesn't give a good image of how strong someone is.

The no-xp rule is stupid as well. Right now there's one monster worth training on, and that's the dagannoth sentinel, which luckily is level 193. So I guess if that stays at 170+ combat there's no problem. But slayer will be a problem. Right now the 170+ combat monsters somewhat worth killing are dark beasts, ice strykes, iron/steel/mith/black dragons, black demons. There's mutated velds, spectres, dagannoth, hellhounds, suqah etc. way below that level. Of course a rebalance might put these creatures at a higher level but good slayer monsters are generally low defence.

 

I see a lot of potential to mess this up now :(.

 

Edit: Nevermind, ninja'd by above post. Guess limited xp is alright, but it better be only a slight cut.

 

There is so much changing that I don't think we should judge anything until at least the beta. What is "worth" killing could easily change. XP per monster might increase drastically. If we can do a lot more damage, and the monsters have more health, that means more combat xp.

 

It's too easy to compare this one change out of context of everything else. I agree that the combat formula should include all the combat skills, but I do see the logic to simplifying the formula. I just don't like it that a player with 99 in the "damage" skills is the same as someone who is 99 in only one of those skills.

 

As for reducing/removing xp.. I would hope the range is larger, and/or the combat levels of the monsters are rebalanced a lot. But I feel like the optimal slayer task list, and stats of monsters will change anyways. (They've been willing to cheat combat levels of monsters in the past... so just having low defense doesn't mean low combat level). Also monsters can go higher than 99 in a skill.

[Jonanananas]

Did any Mod mention how monster combat level will work? Also regarding attack and defence bonuses?

[Platinum_Myr]

I remember reading in one of mod rathe's posts that monster combat level will work exactly the same as player combat level.

[The Runar]

I don't think anyone posted this yet:

 

Armour switching in combat will not be an effective tactic to employ, as when you switch some armour in combat, you will encur a double global cool-down across all your abilities, which will result in your damage output taking a serious hit in the short-term which will give quite an advantage to your opponent who will still be blasting away at you.

[Quyneax]

I don't think anyone posted this yet:

 

Armour switching in combat will not be an effective tactic to employ, as when you switch some armour in combat, you will encur a double global cool-down across all your abilities, which will result in your damage output taking a serious hit in the short-term which will give quite an advantage to your opponent who will still be blasting away at you.

That's very weak :(. Apparently Jagex is intent on destroying the things that make RS interesting >.>. How are they even going to reward apm if you can't switch in combat? One click per 4 ticks to activate your ability, aka 25 apm max?

[Platinum_Myr]

That seems like a nicer method to allow armor switching without making it really powerful. Some of us don't like high APM (though admittedly 25 apm isn't very high). There is more than 1 ability though, so I think you can activate things in sequence.

[Sir_Squab]

The new combat formula looks increadibly simple with a lot fo room to screw up. The only way i can see them avoiding total confusion is if they place a symbol enxt to the level which demonstrates the highest skill of the player.

 

And the less than 30 level monster giving no exp? Complete and utter bull. It will destroy slayer unless they buf a lot of npc's levels.

 

Combat formula is changing, so there's a good chance they will.

 

As for the armor thing, Jagex wants to make the combat triangle matter more with this update. If you can constantly switch armor without penalty, well, there's significantly less of a combat triangle imo.

[Platinum_Myr]

As for the armor thing, Jagex wants to make the combat triangle matter more with this update. If you can constantly switch armor without penalty, well, there's significantly less of a combat triangle imo.

 

It should also balance out the gear so that equipping range gear means melee isn't as effective, and so on.

[Dexek]

I don't think anyone posted this yet:

 

Armour switching in combat will not be an effective tactic to employ, as when you switch some armour in combat, you will encur a double global cool-down across all your abilities, which will result in your damage output taking a serious hit in the short-term which will give quite an advantage to your opponent who will still be blasting away at you.

 

Hmm divine should lessen the damage taken from this cool down during switches?

[Quyneax]

The new combat formula looks increadibly simple with a lot fo room to screw up. The only way i can see them avoiding total confusion is if they place a symbol enxt to the level which demonstrates the highest skill of the player.

 

And the less than 30 level monster giving no exp? Complete and utter bull. It will destroy slayer unless they buf a lot of npc's levels.

 

Combat formula is changing, so there's a good chance they will.

 

As for the armor thing, Jagex wants to make the combat triangle matter more with this update. If you can constantly switch armor without penalty, well, there's significantly less of a combat triangle imo.

People style switching is the ultimate proof that the combat triangle is powerful enough that another set of equipment is more useful than 4-5 brews (or even two sets with 10+ switches, tribrid in Clan Wars) which means a hybrid will beat a one-style opponent with 20% more health. Removing style switching is ultimately a really stupid move imo, it's one of the most interesting parts of the RS metagame due to the many different (combinations of) switches you can use, as well as the interaction with available healing, runes and other inventory space-taking things.

[Platinum_Myr]

The new combat formula looks increadibly simple with a lot fo room to screw up. The only way i can see them avoiding total confusion is if they place a symbol enxt to the level which demonstrates the highest skill of the player.

 

And the less than 30 level monster giving no exp? Complete and utter bull. It will destroy slayer unless they buf a lot of npc's levels.

 

Combat formula is changing, so there's a good chance they will.

 

As for the armor thing, Jagex wants to make the combat triangle matter more with this update. If you can constantly switch armor without penalty, well, there's significantly less of a combat triangle imo.

People style switching is the ultimate proof that the combat triangle is powerful enough that another set of equipment is more useful than 4-5 brews (or even two sets with 10+ switches, tribrid in Clan Wars) which means a hybrid will beat a one-style opponent with 20% more health. Removing style switching is ultimately a really stupid move imo, it's one of the most interesting parts of the RS metagame due to the many different (combinations of) switches you can use, as well as the interaction with available healing, runes and other inventory space-taking things.

 

I don't think this completely ruins style switching, it just makes it less valuable.

[Quyneax]

The new combat formula looks increadibly simple with a lot fo room to screw up. The only way i can see them avoiding total confusion is if they place a symbol enxt to the level which demonstrates the highest skill of the player.

 

And the less than 30 level monster giving no exp? Complete and utter bull. It will destroy slayer unless they buf a lot of npc's levels.

 

Combat formula is changing, so there's a good chance they will.

 

As for the armor thing, Jagex wants to make the combat triangle matter more with this update. If you can constantly switch armor without penalty, well, there's significantly less of a combat triangle imo.

People style switching is the ultimate proof that the combat triangle is powerful enough that another set of equipment is more useful than 4-5 brews (or even two sets with 10+ switches, tribrid in Clan Wars) which means a hybrid will beat a one-style opponent with 20% more health. Removing style switching is ultimately a really stupid move imo, it's one of the most interesting parts of the RS metagame due to the many different (combinations of) switches you can use, as well as the interaction with available healing, runes and other inventory space-taking things.

 

I don't think this completely ruins style switching, it just makes it less valuable.

"Will not be an effective tactic"

 

Granted, Jagex doesn't understand metagaming at all, so they might well be wrong. But it's not a good sign. Double global cooldown sounds to me like you get half the number of ultimates/time compared to your single-style opponent, plus that your adrenaline builds up slower because you can't use the adrenaline-filling abilities as much. I imagine those ultimates will be powerful enough that an extra one is a battle-winner, comparable to another claw special.

 

Either way making it less valuable is stupid too :P.

(also, tormented demons are so going to be dead content with claws crashing and style switching "not an effective tactic")

[xSxqPowerx]

I don't know if I like how they're penalizing armour switching. It kills hybridding first of all, and it also means that you're really being forced into the rock-paper-scissors system of the combat triangle. You have your style, and you can only beat 1 of the 3. No one who is ranging will stay and fight a meleer, no one maging will fight a ranger, etc. So "fair" fights are limited to fights between people using the same class.

 

It could also be the death of bosses like dagannoth kings where you are using different corners of the triangle to fight 3 bosses in a short amount of time.

 

I guess pvm should mostly be fine as long as weapon switching isn't penalized though.

 

I get what they're trying to do, but I'm not sure how it's going to work in practice.

[Tansuo]

It could also be the death of bosses like dagannoth kings where you are using different corners of the triangle to fight 3 bosses in a short amount of time.

I guess pvm should mostly be fine as long as weapon switching isn't penalized though.

 

I would have thought the penalty would just apply to pvp? Or does it reply to pvm too? if so, jagex have ballsed upp big time.

[Quyneax]

It could also be the death of bosses like dagannoth kings where you are using different corners of the triangle to fight 3 bosses in a short amount of time.

I guess pvm should mostly be fine as long as weapon switching isn't penalized though.

 

I would have thought the penalty would just apply to pvp? Or does it reply to pvm too? if so, jagex have ballsed upp big time.

Afaik the special moves are going to be very important in both PvP and PvM. And if they are going to make up most of your dps, dagannoth kings and tormented demons will become much more annoying.

 

@Sxq: that's a good point... one might (slightly optimistically) conclude that Jagex has taken this into account and that hybriding will still exist, but limited to weapons only. Idk though.

[Cheat]

I think its important to understand that Dag Kings may be an incredibly different cup of tea post EoC so you can't say once X thing changes Y thing will be impossible if Y thing is also going to change in an unforeseen way.

[Hedgehog]

Even if they balance the combat triangle, pvp will be dead if you can't switch gear.

 

Meleers will run from mages.

Mages will run from rangers.

Rangers will run from meleers.

[Tansuo]

It could also be the death of bosses like dagannoth kings where you are using different corners of the triangle to fight 3 bosses in a short amount of time.

I guess pvm should mostly be fine as long as weapon switching isn't penalized though.

 

I would have thought the penalty would just apply to pvp? Or does it reply to pvm too? if so, jagex have ballsed upp big time.

Afaik the special moves are going to be very important in both PvP and PvM. And if they are going to make up most of your dps, dagannoth kings and tormented demons will become much more annoying.

 

Special moves will obviously have a big effect, but im thinking in terms of the armour switching penalties

[Quyneax]

It could also be the death of bosses like dagannoth kings where you are using different corners of the triangle to fight 3 bosses in a short amount of time.

I guess pvm should mostly be fine as long as weapon switching isn't penalized though.

 

I would have thought the penalty would just apply to pvp? Or does it reply to pvm too? if so, jagex have ballsed upp big time.

Afaik the special moves are going to be very important in both PvP and PvM. And if they are going to make up most of your dps, dagannoth kings and tormented demons will become much more annoying.

Special moves will obviously have a big effect, but im thinking in terms of the armour switching penalties

Well, armour switching penalties will apparently include having cooldown timers doubled (in duration) on your abilities. Which means your dps will presumably be reduced.

If we assume your adrenaline normally allows you to use abilities at a rate roughly equal to their cooldown, anyway. If adrenaline (from regular attacks) is the bottleneck more than cooldowns, I suppose it won't be much of an issue.

[Platinum_Myr]

It could also be the death of bosses like dagannoth kings where you are using different corners of the triangle to fight 3 bosses in a short amount of time.

I guess pvm should mostly be fine as long as weapon switching isn't penalized though.

 

I would have thought the penalty would just apply to pvp? Or does it reply to pvm too? if so, jagex have ballsed upp big time.

Afaik the special moves are going to be very important in both PvP and PvM. And if they are going to make up most of your dps, dagannoth kings and tormented demons will become much more annoying.

 

@Sxq: that's a good point... one might (slightly optimistically) conclude that Jagex has taken this into account and that hybriding will still exist, but limited to weapons only. Idk though.

 

It really depends on the specifics of the change. But, how often are you going to be switching as it is? If you are up against a single style opponent, they are range, and you are maging so you swap to melee, and suffer a one time negative effect? But if they do swap, then the time wasted swapping is shared/negated. So I think it will work out, but be a bit balanced.

 

It is currently not feasible to make real discussion about the changes because we have zero context. (But its fun to try anyways!)

[xSxqPowerx]

Even if they balance the combat triangle, pvp will be dead if you can't switch gear.

 

Meleers will run from mages.

Mages will run from rangers.

Rangers will run from meleers.

Yeah that's what I was saying.

 

You end up in a situation where all pvp fights (where both players want to fight) occur between the same combat class OR you get to watch a really sad hybrid fight where both players keep switching in order to gain a combat triangle advantage but can't ever use any abilities (no ko potential) because of the cooldown penalty.

 

 

 

 

But yes, it's all speculation until we can test it for ourselves. I just really do not trust Jagex to correctly interpret the current meta game or implement a system that encourages a different metagame that is still fun.

[Sir_Squab]

With any luck we'll see more hybrid armor.

[Blutters]

With any luck we'll see more hybrid armor.

Despite my typical optimism I had the opposite impression. I ASSUME JaGEx wants to encourage teamwork by forcing each person to use one style, thus requiring multiple people to have each point covered.

They've already shown they're willing to delete items that don't go along with this new system. I wonder how they'll reimburse me for nearly 100 hours spent if they decide Hybrid gear doesn't fit with their plans...

Also, Void. Void's entire point was to allow quick switching between combat points and confer offensive bonuses. Both of those are quite obviously in opposition to what they've said so far...

 

 

Also,

>Decry forcing people into one class

>Penalize people for hybriding

???