14th Jan - Kalphite King

[Kaida23]

If you have to add special effects to your video to make it watchable, then it's probably a pretty dull video in the first place.

Perhaps someone should explain that to Hollywood. :P

[Mercifull]

If you have to add special effects to your video to make it watchable, then it's probably a pretty dull video in the first place.

Perhaps someone should explain that to Hollywood. :P

*cough" michael bay *cough*

[Estoc]

 

 

I do not normally take part in arguments on forums because they are often petty and a waste of my time, but I am going to make an exception here because it suits me.

 

In this argument, however, I do not have a dog as they say. I do not PvM, I do not herald myself as having an online presence, and I do not care about the opinions of people I will never meet. That being said I do read the Tip.it forums and as such have to read through arguments like this all the time. I know what i have to say will neither change the opinion of those who disagree with me nor will I feel better about the general petty nature of most posters here.

 

So my argument is simply this: There are those here that assert that Woox's accomplishment is not impressive because he abused a bug. This 'bug' was not explained prior to it being changed nor could anyone have known that the developers had not intended that to happen. Jagex changing the mechanic after he solo'd the Kalphite King does not mean that he was aware that it was a bug and that he was abusing nor does that even mean that it was a bug at all. It simply means that he took advantage of a mechanic that he found (or learned from others) and used that to kill the Kalphite King. Jagex programmed the mechanic that way and I assume that they 'fixed' it to make him harder once they realized how easy it made him.

 

Now who is to say that it was a bug at all? I certainly cannot nor can anyone else other than Jagex, and it just so happens that Jagex has already given their half of the story:

 

Some changes to the Kalphite Kings behaviour have been made to prevent manipulation of his attack cycle in order to avoid more powerful attacks.

 

 

That does not state that it was a bug at all. They changed the code to make the boss more difficult. Simple as that. Very much like re-balancing the Glacors. Since they changed the combat values to reflect the EOC changes, was it bug abuse for anyone that was killing them post EOC, pre-changes?

 

More to the point, while I was going for 99 smithing, I was using the technique of smelting gold ore in the furnace and superheating gold ore with magic. Much later and well before I got 99, they changed this mechanic. Was I, and countless others, bug abusing? By the definitions given in this thread, I was, but then the argument of emergent gameplay comes into light. Surely the smelt/superheat was emergent gameplay and not bug abuse.

 

"But it took them months to patch that, so it was not bug abuse," some might say. Perhaps. Or it was not as common knowledge as how the Kalphite King was solo'd. So then where do we draw the line for bug abuse and emergent gameplay? Apparently my answer has already been given to me. Prayer Flashing. By standards stated that would not be considered bug abuse. It is simply using the game mechanics that are available to the player base to get the most out of what we are given. If, however, Jagex figured out a way to fix that tomorrow and patched it, by the standards given, would it not have been abusing the way Runescape operates on ticks? Surely one could see the error in thinking that it would be anything but bug abuse. No where is it stated that prayer flashing is against the rules, it has never been classified as a bug, but if they changed it tomorrow (much like they did the Kalphite King), one would have to agree that it was abusing a bug if they were to use the logic in this thread.

 

 

Now in the same way that prayer flashing is not a bug, so too was how Woox killed the Kalphite King. No where is there an official listing of what is and is not a bug. Therefor Woox had no way of knowing whether it was or was not a bug. No where has Jagex stated that it was, nor is there anywhere that showed us exactly how the 1 hit K-O worked. Thus there is no way one could argue that he abused a bug. Based upon the facts of this whole situation and not my feelings, one can easily see that Jagex has simply changed a mechanic that they did not like but before they did, someone showed them why they should.

 

 

Prayer flashing:

Was being utilized for years before it was finally addressed.

Requires increased input to gain increased benefits.

Does not stop bosses like Nomad or Pest queen from using their signature moves thus taking all the challenge out of them.

 

This bug turned KK into Runebound Behemoth, a boss far, far easier and completely soloable contrary to the initial design. You are correct in saying it was not bug abuse, however it is most certainly a bug*. It is a defect in both the plan of how KK is supposed to work and in how the code was written, allowing it to happen. I don't think anyone here is arguing for a ban, they just want him to stop being officially recognized as a skilled pvmer despite the fact that most high level pvmers could do the same given access to the same bug he was.

 

* a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan - http://dictionary.re.../browse/bug?s=t

 

 

How does one tell when the discussion value goes from genuine to plain rabid babbling with the occasional foaming at the mouth?

 

Seriously? I don't even know woox, but he certain ain't bug abusing... Jagex ain't brown-nosing him either. The most they did was give him a proverbial pat in the back for his emergent game play. Most specifically they consistently do this because he forges ahead of most to test the grounds. Jagex might be the ones who lay the path for players to walk... That path might not be so obvious to everyone too. But don't blame woox for using what's at his disposal to push the limits.

 

I would agree with this if they didn't immediately hide the trails he so boldly blazed. Hell, I do respect him for doing just this and being the first(?) one to solo Corp.

Even then using a definition is subject to the context of the situation. If you were to play a much more involving game as fad as PVM such as WoW it would be so much harder to make clear boundaries for emergent game play. My point really is that runescape is starting to lose that blockiness it has as far as combat goes. You are going to see a lot more emergent game play such as what's come up. At the moment nothing much has come up, but I can imagine a few ideas... Such as using the bleed abilities while kiting bosses. Eve then runescape does retain some of its blockiness sadly.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I really don't think it was intended to be soloable this way. KK is supposed to be the toughest boss ever and take a large (or experienced) team to take down. One player doing it with a few rocktails a week after release? It's definitely leaning towards being a bug, if nothing else.

[muggiwhplar]

Quick question: is it feasible to duo the KK?

[jayc3399]

What I find funny is unless you get a decent team on voice chat that actually listens KK is harder in groups of 10+ then it is in groups of 5 or 6.

 

Mage phase destroys if people don't know how to deal with the orbs. Watching woox shows just how mechanical you can be to avoid that mechanic and without communication you aren't going to see that in a mass.

[Stev]

Just watched the Woox KK vid. I felt like I was supposed to be tripping on acid while watching it.

That's the general feeling of all mainstream pvm/pvp mantage or extremism videos. The techno/ electronic music and whacky custom cursors... All that to look cool.

Or they genuinely enjoy the style of music they put in their videos? If I like hardstep, I'm not gonna put Taylor Swift in my video to please you. :P.

[Urza285]

Just watched the Woox KK vid. I felt like I was supposed to be tripping on acid while watching it.

That's the general feeling of all mainstream pvm/pvp mantage or extremism videos. The techno/ electronic music and whacky custom cursors... All that to look cool.

Or they genuinely enjoy the style of music they put in their videos? If I like hardstep, I'm not gonna put Taylor Swift in my video to please you. :P.

Id put her on a hardcore ok vid just to taunt people... You still lose :P.

[Alg]

Id put her on a hardcore ok vid just to taunt people... You still lose :P.

Depending on your viewers, that may or may not be worth it. :razz:

[Skiwee]

 

 

I do not normally take part in arguments on forums because they are often petty and a waste of my time, but I am going to make an exception here because it suits me.

 

In this argument, however, I do not have a dog as they say. I do not PvM, I do not herald myself as having an online presence, and I do not care about the opinions of people I will never meet. That being said I do read the Tip.it forums and as such have to read through arguments like this all the time. I know what i have to say will neither change the opinion of those who disagree with me nor will I feel better about the general petty nature of most posters here.

 

So my argument is simply this: There are those here that assert that Woox's accomplishment is not impressive because he abused a bug. This 'bug' was not explained prior to it being changed nor could anyone have known that the developers had not intended that to happen. Jagex changing the mechanic after he solo'd the Kalphite King does not mean that he was aware that it was a bug and that he was abusing nor does that even mean that it was a bug at all. It simply means that he took advantage of a mechanic that he found (or learned from others) and used that to kill the Kalphite King. Jagex programmed the mechanic that way and I assume that they 'fixed' it to make him harder once they realized how easy it made him.

 

Now who is to say that it was a bug at all? I certainly cannot nor can anyone else other than Jagex, and it just so happens that Jagex has already given their half of the story:

 

Some changes to the Kalphite Kings behaviour have been made to prevent manipulation of his attack cycle in order to avoid more powerful attacks.

 

 

That does not state that it was a bug at all. They changed the code to make the boss more difficult. Simple as that. Very much like re-balancing the Glacors. Since they changed the combat values to reflect the EOC changes, was it bug abuse for anyone that was killing them post EOC, pre-changes?

 

More to the point, while I was going for 99 smithing, I was using the technique of smelting gold ore in the furnace and superheating gold ore with magic. Much later and well before I got 99, they changed this mechanic. Was I, and countless others, bug abusing? By the definitions given in this thread, I was, but then the argument of emergent gameplay comes into light. Surely the smelt/superheat was emergent gameplay and not bug abuse.

 

"But it took them months to patch that, so it was not bug abuse," some might say. Perhaps. Or it was not as common knowledge as how the Kalphite King was solo'd. So then where do we draw the line for bug abuse and emergent gameplay? Apparently my answer has already been given to me. Prayer Flashing. By standards stated that would not be considered bug abuse. It is simply using the game mechanics that are available to the player base to get the most out of what we are given. If, however, Jagex figured out a way to fix that tomorrow and patched it, by the standards given, would it not have been abusing the way Runescape operates on ticks? Surely one could see the error in thinking that it would be anything but bug abuse. No where is it stated that prayer flashing is against the rules, it has never been classified as a bug, but if they changed it tomorrow (much like they did the Kalphite King), one would have to agree that it was abusing a bug if they were to use the logic in this thread.

 

 

Now in the same way that prayer flashing is not a bug, so too was how Woox killed the Kalphite King. No where is there an official listing of what is and is not a bug. Therefor Woox had no way of knowing whether it was or was not a bug. No where has Jagex stated that it was, nor is there anywhere that showed us exactly how the 1 hit K-O worked. Thus there is no way one could argue that he abused a bug. Based upon the facts of this whole situation and not my feelings, one can easily see that Jagex has simply changed a mechanic that they did not like but before they did, someone showed them why they should.

 

 

Prayer flashing:

Was being utilized for years before it was finally addressed.

Requires increased input to gain increased benefits.

Does not stop bosses like Nomad or Pest queen from using their signature moves thus taking all the challenge out of them.

 

This bug turned KK into Runebound Behemoth, a boss far, far easier and completely soloable contrary to the initial design. You are correct in saying it was not bug abuse, however it is most certainly a bug*. It is a defect in both the plan of how KK is supposed to work and in how the code was written, allowing it to happen. I don't think anyone here is arguing for a ban, they just want him to stop being officially recognized as a skilled pvmer despite the fact that most high level pvmers could do the same given access to the same bug he was.

 

* a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan - http://dictionary.re.../browse/bug?s=t

 

 

How does one tell when the discussion value goes from genuine to plain rabid babbling with the occasional foaming at the mouth?

 

Seriously? I don't even know woox, but he certain ain't bug abusing... Jagex ain't brown-nosing him either. The most they did was give him a proverbial pat in the back for his emergent game play. Most specifically they consistently do this because he forges ahead of most to test the grounds. Jagex might be the ones who lay the path for players to walk... That path might not be so obvious to everyone too. But don't blame woox for using what's at his disposal to push the limits.

 

I would agree with this if they didn't immediately hide the trails he so boldly blazed. Hell, I do respect him for doing just this and being the first(?) one to solo Corp.

 

I do understand your reasoning. And to a point you make valid points. Where I think this argument falls apart though is the opinion stated by Jagex.

 

To offer a different situation that shows what I am saying, I would mention that my favorite color is green. No matter how many people agreed that my favorite color is red based on past experiences with me wearing mostly red, driving a red car, dating a red hair girl, etc, it would not change the fact that my favorite color is not red. It is green.

 

In the same way I contend that Jagex is the only one who can offer an opinion on whether this is a bug or not. They have and they at no point deemed it so. To digress to my example though, if Woox were to show why red was better than green; why I should changed my opinion, and I chose to change my opinion based on his argument, I could. That does not mean that my favorite color was red, or that I originally intended for it to be red. It simply means that someone changed my mind on how something should be. I think this instance with the KK follows the same path.

[Estoc]

 

 

I do not normally take part in arguments on forums because they are often petty and a waste of my time, but I am going to make an exception here because it suits me.

 

In this argument, however, I do not have a dog as they say. I do not PvM, I do not herald myself as having an online presence, and I do not care about the opinions of people I will never meet. That being said I do read the Tip.it forums and as such have to read through arguments like this all the time. I know what i have to say will neither change the opinion of those who disagree with me nor will I feel better about the general petty nature of most posters here.

 

So my argument is simply this: There are those here that assert that Woox's accomplishment is not impressive because he abused a bug. This 'bug' was not explained prior to it being changed nor could anyone have known that the developers had not intended that to happen. Jagex changing the mechanic after he solo'd the Kalphite King does not mean that he was aware that it was a bug and that he was abusing nor does that even mean that it was a bug at all. It simply means that he took advantage of a mechanic that he found (or learned from others) and used that to kill the Kalphite King. Jagex programmed the mechanic that way and I assume that they 'fixed' it to make him harder once they realized how easy it made him.

 

Now who is to say that it was a bug at all? I certainly cannot nor can anyone else other than Jagex, and it just so happens that Jagex has already given their half of the story:

 

Some changes to the Kalphite Kings behaviour have been made to prevent manipulation of his attack cycle in order to avoid more powerful attacks.

 

 

That does not state that it was a bug at all. They changed the code to make the boss more difficult. Simple as that. Very much like re-balancing the Glacors. Since they changed the combat values to reflect the EOC changes, was it bug abuse for anyone that was killing them post EOC, pre-changes?

 

More to the point, while I was going for 99 smithing, I was using the technique of smelting gold ore in the furnace and superheating gold ore with magic. Much later and well before I got 99, they changed this mechanic. Was I, and countless others, bug abusing? By the definitions given in this thread, I was, but then the argument of emergent gameplay comes into light. Surely the smelt/superheat was emergent gameplay and not bug abuse.

 

"But it took them months to patch that, so it was not bug abuse," some might say. Perhaps. Or it was not as common knowledge as how the Kalphite King was solo'd. So then where do we draw the line for bug abuse and emergent gameplay? Apparently my answer has already been given to me. Prayer Flashing. By standards stated that would not be considered bug abuse. It is simply using the game mechanics that are available to the player base to get the most out of what we are given. If, however, Jagex figured out a way to fix that tomorrow and patched it, by the standards given, would it not have been abusing the way Runescape operates on ticks? Surely one could see the error in thinking that it would be anything but bug abuse. No where is it stated that prayer flashing is against the rules, it has never been classified as a bug, but if they changed it tomorrow (much like they did the Kalphite King), one would have to agree that it was abusing a bug if they were to use the logic in this thread.

 

 

Now in the same way that prayer flashing is not a bug, so too was how Woox killed the Kalphite King. No where is there an official listing of what is and is not a bug. Therefor Woox had no way of knowing whether it was or was not a bug. No where has Jagex stated that it was, nor is there anywhere that showed us exactly how the 1 hit K-O worked. Thus there is no way one could argue that he abused a bug. Based upon the facts of this whole situation and not my feelings, one can easily see that Jagex has simply changed a mechanic that they did not like but before they did, someone showed them why they should.

 

 

Prayer flashing:

Was being utilized for years before it was finally addressed.

Requires increased input to gain increased benefits.

Does not stop bosses like Nomad or Pest queen from using their signature moves thus taking all the challenge out of them.

 

This bug turned KK into Runebound Behemoth, a boss far, far easier and completely soloable contrary to the initial design. You are correct in saying it was not bug abuse, however it is most certainly a bug*. It is a defect in both the plan of how KK is supposed to work and in how the code was written, allowing it to happen. I don't think anyone here is arguing for a ban, they just want him to stop being officially recognized as a skilled pvmer despite the fact that most high level pvmers could do the same given access to the same bug he was.

 

* a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan - http://dictionary.re.../browse/bug?s=t

 

 

How does one tell when the discussion value goes from genuine to plain rabid babbling with the occasional foaming at the mouth?

 

Seriously? I don't even know woox, but he certain ain't bug abusing... Jagex ain't brown-nosing him either. The most they did was give him a proverbial pat in the back for his emergent game play. Most specifically they consistently do this because he forges ahead of most to test the grounds. Jagex might be the ones who lay the path for players to walk... That path might not be so obvious to everyone too. But don't blame woox for using what's at his disposal to push the limits.

 

I would agree with this if they didn't immediately hide the trails he so boldly blazed. Hell, I do respect him for doing just this and being the first(?) one to solo Corp.

 

I do understand your reasoning. And to a point you make valid points. Where I think this argument falls apart though is the opinion stated by Jagex.

 

To offer a different situation that shows what I am saying, I would mention that my favorite color is green. No matter how many people agreed that my favorite color is red based on past experiences with me wearing mostly red, driving a red car, dating a red hair girl, etc, it would not change the fact that my favorite color is not red. It is green.

 

In the same way I contend that Jagex is the only one who can offer an opinion on whether this is a bug or not. They have and they at no point deemed it so. To digress to my example though, if Woox were to show why red was better than green; why I should changed my opinion, and I chose to change my opinion based on his argument, I could. That does not mean that my favorite color was red, or that I originally intended for it to be red. It simply means that someone changed my mind on how something should be. I think this instance with the KK follows the same path.

 

Whatever it is, it was unintended and so patched. This is the problem people are having with Woox's achievements, they're not using the same tactics everyone else has access too.

 

It's like someone cutting corners on a race and being allowed to keep his trophy. If the race track's borders were not clearly identified then of course he's not to blame, but he also shouldn't be praised for it.

[mousepad]

So did he do it? I watched the whole video and the only thing I can guess at is the KK won't use his special attack if the player he is after is more than a certain amount of squares away. Woox was running in, taking a swing, the running off immediately.

[Yoko Kurama]

I quit watching RS videos when people started adding their own cheesy "special effects" which detracted from the footage itself. If you have to add special effects to your video to make it watchable, then it's probably a pretty dull video in the first place.

 

I abide by the same general principal, except I apply it to all videos, particularly the ones that add their own music to it. I am here to watch the content of your video, not listen to your crappy taste in music.

[aerendil]

woox for rs lance armstrong 2013

 

 

but seriously people..... are we REALLY arguing about this? Whether he "bug abused" or not is pure semantics, get off your panzers and stop grammer natzing.

 

He killed it using an unintended mechanic, irrelevant if he was abusing this mechanic or not. Now that mechanic is fixed, so someone has to be the first to solo it without using this bug(or mechanic if you want), just like nex. Now lets get back to arguing over REAL issues.

 

like grammer and punctuation .

[Alg]

You expect us to debate about something important? In General discussion?

 

Does not compute.

[Pirkka]

woox for rs lance armstrong 2013

 

 

but seriously people..... are we REALLY arguing about this? Whether he "bug abused" or not is pure semantics, get off your panzers and stop grammer natzing.

 

He killed it using an unintended mechanic, irrelevant if he was abusing this mechanic or not. Now that mechanic is fixed, so someone has to be the first to solo it without using this bug(or mechanic if you want), just like nex. Now lets get back to arguing over REAL issues.

 

like grammer and punctuation .

 

*grammar

[Golvellius]

woox for rs lance armstrong 2013

 

 

but seriously people..... are we REALLY arguing about this? Whether he "bug abused" or not is pure semantics, get off your panzers and stop grammer natzing.

 

He killed it using an unintended mechanic, irrelevant if he was abusing this mechanic or not. Now that mechanic is fixed, so someone has to be the first to solo it without using this bug(or mechanic if you want), just like nex. Now lets get back to arguing over REAL issues.

 

like grammer and punctuation .

 

*grammar

It's pronounced 'grammer'. Gotta love english.

[Sy_Accursed]

woox for rs lance armstrong 2013

 

 

but seriously people..... are we REALLY arguing about this? Whether he "bug abused" or not is pure semantics, get off your panzers and stop grammer natzing.

 

He killed it using an unintended mechanic, irrelevant if he was abusing this mechanic or not. Now that mechanic is fixed, so someone has to be the first to solo it without using this bug(or mechanic if you want), just like nex. Now lets get back to arguing over REAL issues.

 

like grammer and punctuation .

 

*grammar

It's pronounced 'grammer'. Gotta love english.

 

Trudat. Though unfortunately it is still spelt grammar.

[Platinum_Myr]

I pronounce it with more of an a sound....

[Alg]

I pronounce it with more of an a sound....

You could probably get into accents as well, which is a can of worms that we really don't want to open in this thread.

[Fallstar]

There was no bug abuse at all...

 

The KK was nothing special, it used a set rotation of attacks. It's far less complex than Nex.

All that happened was Woox realized that when you stun it, it resets the rotation of attacks, so he could avoid the green death goo attack. There is no bug there, just an easy set of mechanics to learn.

 

Out of the recent big 3 bosses, (Corp, Nex, KK) I think the KK is actually by far the easiest relative to player power levels at release. The idea of duoing, never mind soloing, corp a week after release was ludicrous.

 

People were efficiently duo-ing the KK on release day and it took what, 8 days? for the first successful solo?

[Hedgehog]

woox for rs lance armstrong 2013

 

 

but seriously people..... are we REALLY arguing about this? Whether he "bug abused" or not is pure semantics, get off your panzers and stop grammer natzing.

 

He killed it using an unintended mechanic, irrelevant if he was abusing this mechanic or not. Now that mechanic is fixed, so someone has to be the first to solo it without using this bug(or mechanic if you want), just like nex. Now lets get back to arguing over REAL issues.

 

like grammer and punctuation .

 

*grammar

I assume that he said that ironically. You can tell because he did not capitalize the first word of his sentence, misspelled "grammar", put a space before the period, and used "like" instead of "such as" (assuming he means that we should argue about grammar and punctuation and other similar issues, not just similar issues).

[Estoc]

People were efficiently duo-ing the KK on release day and it took what, 8 days? for the first successful solo?

 

Which is now no longer possible hence the last 5+ pages. Is it a legitimate solo? Woox's experiment was to see if he could solo the KK. However, scientific method requires you be able to reproduce the same results. Woox cannot, and so I say it is not a legitimate solo.

 

A solo of the KK without the 1hko attack working properly is no better than if the KK did not attack him at all. It might as well be a completely different boss.

[Fallstar]

People were efficiently duo-ing the KK on release day and it took what, 8 days? for the first successful solo?

 

Which is now no longer possible hence the last 5+ pages. Is it a legitimate solo? Woox's experiment was to see if he could solo the KK. However, scientific method requires you be able to reproduce the same results. Woox cannot, and so I say it is not a legitimate solo.

 

A solo of the KK without the 1hko attack working properly is no better than if the KK did not attack him at all. It might as well be a completely different boss.

 

Jagex released the boss with a rotating set of attacks. That was a conscious design decision. There is no argument here.

 

Fundamental scientific laws don't change in between experiments conducted under the same conditions. The universe doesn't get patched and updated. You can't expect to apply the same level of rigour to an MMO.

[Quyneax]

Please can we just say that the KK was soloable, using a definition of soloable that would make it a true statement, and that we have yet to see if it still is soloable according to that definition?

 

 

Anyway, onto a different matter: what's the top equipment/kpph/hourly profit and expected price development for drygores?

[ohhh]

Great moneymaking method!