13-Aug-2013 - The Death of Chivalry

[cardsfanbj]

Kinda wish there was some sort of "Undo" option, especially with quests that will sort-of-change our future. I mean, it's not like its actually changing anything for you to go back and change who did what or how you acted. My guess to how it'd work is by forcing you to replay the entire quest, just without any xp gain from anything like the portcullis or rewards.

 

I took a Godless approach most of the way through the quest, but I was actually a little afraid of offering my own blood at the second ward (stupid, I know), so I had Sir Owen offer his blood so, instead of me being the one to use it later, he's going to be the one. I know it's minor, but it's just bugging me.

 

 

 

I wish there was an option to say "Hey, the wand seems perfectly safe here, well protected from the Kinshra. Why not leave it here and not make it vulnerable en route to some other destination?"

The quest could still have the same outcome with Sir Owen taking charge saying "No! I've sworn allegiance to Saradomin so I've got to do this" and basically having the same results as if you asked him to make the blood sacrifice. This would at least make me feel a little better

 

[SwreeTak]

The frozen door is the exit.

They even comment on how the tomb is somewhere in the frozen north as evidence by the snow around near the entrance.

 

Given the stylings and 'frozen north' most likely the door is buried somewhere around GWD region since much of the fighting seems to of been there and Forinthry aka wildy.

 

Quite likely. Exit to a new area in the north, close to GWD...Certainly there could be more to discover there.

[Quyneax]

The frozen door is the exit.

They even comment on how the tomb is somewhere in the frozen north as evidence by the snow around near the entrance.

 

Given the stylings and 'frozen north' most likely the door is buried somewhere around GWD region since much of the fighting seems to of been there and Forinthry aka wildy.

A 'shortcut' to GWD would be nice - especially if we could re-route the teleport spell to go somewhere more hospitable than the fortress (say, a PoH?). That would be a great future quest reward.

[Ts_Stormrage]

[hide=LOTS of quotes to respond to:]

Player: Why did you choose us for this mission?

• Saradomin: Sir Owen has prior knowledge of the layout of the Black Knights' Fortress.
  
• Saradomin: He has dealt with their kind before.
  
• Saradomin: Moreover, he is willing to make any sacrifice to achieve his mission.
  
• Saradomin: I will have need of his devotion.
  
• Saradomin: As for you. Well...you shall soon see how important you are to me.
  

Dialogue from the beginning of the quest. Seems like the only reason we were asked on this quest is because Saradomin knew he wouldn't pass the test of virtue and needed us to do it...

By Guthix, he really only cares about himself...

Unless you take his side, in which he shows a great deal of regret for not being the god that people think he should be.

And that's the problem with him, unless you're on his side, he does not care for you at all. :/

Which is a shame, because he could use the development.

Which lets me think that he still has the "if you are not with me, you are against me and you should die" mentality left from his young god days.

 

In fact, the whole reason why he chose Sir Owen sounded iffy to me. He chose him because he was willing to sacrifice himself, so... you want people die for you? (Maybe he only wanted his devotion to get the job done, and used the wrong reference instead :S)

Yeah, no need to start blasting deadly spells at us when we just want to keep a wand for ourselves, especially after we infiltrated a Zamorakian castle, performed arcane rituals, fought spiritual beings, solved some age-old puzzles and stood the test of virtue, which all could have us killed. That wand is ours, and he may attack us over it, but it won't help him becoming more liked by us.

now that its been out, it seems the dialogue choices are set up to re-enforce your pre-existing opinions on sara, not change them.

[/hide]

 

First of all, regret does not make one virtuous, this isn't Catholicism...

Second, his "with me or against me" also reeks of self-serving arrogance...

Finally, this whole "victory at all costs" and "the end always justifies the means" talk is never a way to win somebody over who is already doubting you...

 

Yes, I would agree that the dialogue is set up in a way that it does re-affirm your beliefs about Saradomin, which makes him rather multi-faced in the public opinion, where everyone will soon have their own version of events, and is quite detrimental to what an MMO means...

 

To me he seemed like any one of the Abrahamic gods, a supposedly-but-not-really all-knowing and all-powerful 5 year old kid who wants to have all the toys for himself...

I wonder how this plays out in the next quest, where our choices here will apparently have mattered, at least to some extent...

[Alg]

If one side was clearly perfect, then this whole "multi-sided conflict" would be even more of a joke than it already is.

[HunterDexter]

Yeah, the little popup that showx "attack Dawn" and "attack skeles" was able to be moved around and seemed to block any other kind of interfaces in the 3d game world..

 

That bug happens everywhere in the game, sadly. :s

[chenw]

If one side was clearly perfect, then this whole "multi-sided conflict" would be even more of a joke than it already is.

 

Which is my problem with the portrayal of Saradomin as a god. An imperfect god is merely some random person of a random unknown race who happen to wield more power than majority of the people and seeks to control the lesser beings. Which in my eyes, is just another person with human qualities, and if you remove his power, he will be once again, just another random leader. Makes the lore more interesting sure, but makes me unable to distinguish a god or a normal person whose only difference to mortals is the power he/she/it wields.

 

To this extent, I would much rather follow a god who has been consistent with his actions than one who has been seesawing back and forth, making him extremely unpredictable. Saradomin, in my opinion, fits that category completely, and so does Sliske, Leading me to believe that Saradomin can be actually more dangerous than Zamorak (at least Zamorak lets it be known he wants chaos, nothing more).

[Urza285]

This technically goes here, but I found a guy who got the whole set including the necklace:

 

[Binary Mage]

It's a really cool-looking set. I'm hoping to do enough daily challenges and monster slaying to get the whole set. :D

 

The necklace's charm double chance sounds like it's gonna be really interesting and useful.

[Platinum_Myr]

I actually got the Saradomin regrets his actions dialog even though I am fighting against him in the Battle of Lumbridge.. I think ya'll just didn't try all the dialog...

 

Also, I feel like they have to make gods "super-sized" mortals, because a God is not an interesting character if he has no character flaws.

[Saradomin_Mage]

I actually got the Saradomin regrets his actions dialog even though I am fighting against him in the Battle of Lumbridge.. I think ya'll just didn't try all the dialog...

I picked this up a lot from the quest too, at the end when he goes into a monologue after the corruption of Sir Owen (maybe he only does this if you make enough positive decisions, including handing him the wand).

 

Player: Guthix wanted me to protect the world from gods like you.

 

Saradomin: I was mortal once, a long time ago.

Saradomin: I have done...questionable things.

Saradomin: Yet I have always hoped that the ends justify my means.

Saradomin: I had hoped to use the wand to restore the centaur race.

Saradomin: I try to do what is necessary to protect my people, that they might live a life of virtue without fear.

Saradomin: ...and have no cause to dirty their hands, as I have.

Saradomin: I am sorry. There is nothing more I can do.

 

 

 

At the end of my quest he also gave Sir Owen the wand, which does slightly reduce that powerhungry vibe.

 

You can also talk to him pre-quest about the Naragi incident (I didn't), but his dialogue there also expresses his regret.

 

Player: I want to talk about your actions on Guthix's home world...

 

Saradomin: The ruin I brought to the Naragi is my greatest shame.

Saradomin: Civilisations have risen and fallen, and still the actions of my past haunt me.

Saradomin: And so they should, for regret begets wisdom, and I have much to regret.

Saradomin: I was young and filled with a new and glorious power. I wore the Elder Crown, and thought it granted me the right to rule.

Saradomin: In my arrogance, I did not anticipate the Naragi would refuse.

Saradomin: I sought to make amends, when the beast and the hunter brought violence of their own.

Saradomin: I fought against them for the same reason that I now battle Zamorak...

Saradomin: To protect you. To remove a threat.

Saradomin: As long as these invaders exist, your world shall never know peace.

[Platinum_Myr]

Yea. I talked to him at the beginning of the quest about the naragi. He expresses a lot of regret then. Maybe that's what he did.

 

I ended up giving him the wand because I figured he'd take it anyways.. which turned out to be right.

[chenw]

Looking at the transcript again, note he never actually mentioned WHY he wiped Naragi off

[Sy_Accursed]

He doesn't outright say it but the reason is there:

 

I wore the Elder Crown, and thought it granted me the right to rule.

In my arrogance, I did not anticipate the Naragi would refuse.

 

He's not outright saying it but he felt he had the right to rule and his entire philosophy always seems to be eliminating those outside his grand design therefore it is implied he started attacking them because they would not follow him and thus were outside of his grand design. Only changing his mind when Tuska and Skargaroth arrived and he sought to kill them to save the Naragi - though this version of events is questionable as it is implied he was not there at the end when Skargaroth crushed Guthix's house/daughter and Guthix ascended. So did he really stay to save them or did he just fight cause he wanted it to be HIS world and once it was mostly ruined he just bailed?

[Saradomin_Mage]

Looking at the transcript again, note he never actually mentioned WHY he wiped Naragi off

 

Saradomin: The ruin I brought to the Naragi is my greatest shame.

Saradomin: Civilisations have risen and fallen, and still the actions of my past haunt me.

Saradomin: And so they should, for regret begets wisdom, and I have much to regret.

Saradomin: I was young and filled with a new and glorious power. I wore the Elder Crown, and thought it granted me the right to rule.

Saradomin: In my arrogance, I did not anticipate the Naragi would refuse.

I think he leaves it to you to figure out. To me it's pretty clear that he was a new god at the time, giddy with his newfound power, and expected the Naragi to worship him by virtue of it. When they didn't, he brought ruin to them.

[Hedgehog]

It's interesting how Saradomin isn't that much older than Guthix

[Ts_Stormrage]

For me, the main reason why I am on the Godless side, is quite simple...

 

Gods are very powerful beings, almost all of them through very powerful items, that they actively sought out, for whatever purpose... This makes them power-hungry (still), and frankly, I don't trust any of them with any of their powers... No matter how ill-gotten, no matter how remorseful, and no matter how well-meant...

[Sy_Accursed]

almost all of them through very powerful items, that they actively sought out, for whatever purpose...

 

Made up fact alert!

 

We only know how 2 (3 if Sliske is) attained godhood originally.

 

Guthix got it via stealing Skargaroth's by accident.

Zamorak got it by accident when trying to kill Zaros.

Sliske got it by accident when killing Guthix.

 

Bandos, Armadyl, Seren, Tuska, Skargaroth, Tumeken, Marimbo, Brassica Prime, Karamjan God, Fremmenik God, etc. we have NO idea how or why they attained godhood.

Saradomin we have been told his power comes from the crown, implying that's how he became a god BUT we have no idea how or why he came across the crown.

 

Equally while it is inferred many came to Gielinor seeking artefacts by following Saradomin it is not clear that their purpose was this and it is not true of all of them.

Seren came because she liked Guthix/at his request.

Skargaroth never came here and we have been told his motives were as a hunter only with Tuska being his ultimate prey.

Tuska is a mindless beast with no motives.

Bandos is shown to be rather mercenary and quite possibly only came to Gielinor for the battles/due to being hired.

 

All the rest we do not have any idea of exact details of their coming to Gielinor, how they came to be gods or even what exactly they did here prior to the godwars (with the small exceptions of Armadyl obtaining the staff and Zaros being stabbed) and we don't even know what they did in the godwars for like half of them.

 

I agree with your sentiment in many ways about trusting gods with their power, but your fact is incorrect.

[J35u5_M4]

almost all of them through very powerful items, that they actively sought out, for whatever purpose...

 

Made up fact alert!

 

We only know how 2 (3 if Sliske is) attained godhood originally.

 

Guthix got it via stealing Skargaroth's by accident.

Zamorak got it by accident when trying to kill Zaros.

Sliske got it by accident when killing Zaros.

 

Bandos, Armadyl, Seren, Tuska, Skargaroth, Tumeken, Marimbo, Brassica Prime, Karamjan God, Fremmenik God, etc. we have NO idea how or why they attained godhood.

Saradomin we have been told his power comes from the crown, implying that's how he became a god BUT we have no idea how or why he came across the crown.

 

Equally while it is inferred many came to Gielinor seeking artefacts by following Saradomin it is not clear that their purpose was this and it is not true of all of them.

Seren came because she liked Guthix/at his request.

Skargaroth never came here and we have been told his motives were as a hunter only with Tuska being his ultimate prey.

Tuska is a mindless beast with no motives.

Bandos is shown to be rather mercenary and quite possibly only came to Gielinor for the battles/due to being hired.

 

All the rest we do not have any idea of exact details of their coming to Gielinor, how they came to be gods or even what exactly they did here prior to the godwars (with the small exceptions of Armadyl obtaining the staff and Zaros being stabbed) and we don't even know what they did in the godwars for like half of them.

 

I agree with your sentiment in many ways about trusting gods with their power, but your fact is incorrect.

 

You mean when Sliske killed Gutihx

[Sy_Accursed]

almost all of them through very powerful items, that they actively sought out, for whatever purpose...

 

Made up fact alert!

 

We only know how 2 (3 if Sliske is) attained godhood originally.

 

Guthix got it via stealing Skargaroth's by accident.

Zamorak got it by accident when trying to kill Zaros.

Sliske got it by accident when killing Zaros.

 

Bandos, Armadyl, Seren, Tuska, Skargaroth, Tumeken, Marimbo, Brassica Prime, Karamjan God, Fremmenik God, etc. we have NO idea how or why they attained godhood.

Saradomin we have been told his power comes from the crown, implying that's how he became a god BUT we have no idea how or why he came across the crown.

 

Equally while it is inferred many came to Gielinor seeking artefacts by following Saradomin it is not clear that their purpose was this and it is not true of all of them.

Seren came because she liked Guthix/at his request.

Skargaroth never came here and we have been told his motives were as a hunter only with Tuska being his ultimate prey.

Tuska is a mindless beast with no motives.

Bandos is shown to be rather mercenary and quite possibly only came to Gielinor for the battles/due to being hired.

 

All the rest we do not have any idea of exact details of their coming to Gielinor, how they came to be gods or even what exactly they did here prior to the godwars (with the small exceptions of Armadyl obtaining the staff and Zaros being stabbed) and we don't even know what they did in the godwars for like half of them.

 

I agree with your sentiment in many ways about trusting gods with their power, but your fact is incorrect.

 

You mean when Sliske killed Gutihx

 

Whoops, brain fart on the typing there.

[Miss Lioness]

Wasn't it that Zamorak tried to kill Zaros because he wanted to lead and be in the spotlight?

[Urza285]

Wasn't it that Zamorak tried to kill Zaros because he wanted to lead and be in the spotlight?

I think I remember some of the lore stating that he had the strongest feelings of rebellion and that he was just the catalyst. Many of Zaros followers were getting fed up with his empty promises and that's what was the problem.

[Sy_Accursed]

Wasn't it that Zamorak tried to kill Zaros because he wanted to lead and be in the spotlight?

I think I remember some of the lore stating that he had the strongest feelings of rebellion and that he was just the catalyst. Many of Zaros followers were getting fed up with his empty promises and that's what was the problem.

 

^ This pretty much covers the reasons, but regardless of that nothing in the lore actually says Zamorak was trying to become a god through his actions he was merely trying to take down Zaros. So his obtaining of the godly power was pure accident it seems.

[Flabberwocky]

I'm happy that so much of the early game experience is getting reworked. The Death of Chivalry was fun. At least on world 42, a surprisingly large amount of people are debating about what God to poke tentatively/follow. Hopefully with so much information, plus the new skill next week, that'll make the game much more interesting for new players.

[Kaida23]

Finally had time to get the quest done today, and I really enjoyed it. The storyline was good, the puzzles weren't too complicated and the boss fight was challenging without being overly difficult. Overall, an excellent rework. :thumbup:

 

What is it with all the titles recently though? I've now gotten 8 new ones in the last two weeks, and I haven't bought any of the BoL ones.