Elf City – Design Documents - General Elf City Discussion

[Urza285]

No... you need to give players more bank space! Seriously whats wrong with you people. We have so many potions that are used regularly its sick... its almost as if we need a pantry added by every bank.

[stealthchris117]

 

 

Ithell:

• An NPC will be added to the area who is trying to gather crystal seeds. Thematically, he is looking for ways to stabilize crystals so they do not need charges. A player can trade a dragon pickaxe/dragon hatchet and a number of crystal seeds to gain a crystal pickaxe/crystal hatchet. 

o The crystal hatchet and crystal pickaxe will not degrade, and will be addable to the toolbelt. By using these items, the player will have twice the chance of gaining shattered heart and golden shattered heart rocks from crystal trees and the Seren Stones. The crystal pickaxe will also have a chance of generating an additional corrupted ore from the Seren Stones, while a crystal hatchet will have a chance of gaining cleansing crystals from crystal trees. The crystal hatchet and crystal pickaxe will both be untradeable. The crystal hatchet will require Attack level 70 to wield, and Woodcutting level 71 to mine with. The crystal pickaxe will require Attack level 70 to wield, and Mining level 71 to mine with. The aim is for the crystal pickaxe and hatchet to be an upgrade to their dragon equivalents, but an alternative to the adze and Imcando pickaxe. A player would change depending on what they wanted to achieve/where they wanted to train.

 

Changes from Document 4.

 

 

oh no.... now dragon picks are going to go up in price even more.... If they are going to do this they need to remove the dragon pick as part of the way to make the imcando pickaxe... The adze doesn't need a dragon hatchet and the imcando shouldn't need the dragon pickaxe.

RIP affordable Dragon Pickaxe (if you ever existed)....

 

But on the positive side I'm very happy to see the addition of the crystal hatchet and pickaxe and that they are non-degrading and can be added to the toolbelt. I guess I need to sacrifice if I want this.

Also they need to allow you to give this guy your dragon hatchet or pickaxe from your toolbelt already. (fingers crossed)

[Urza285]

Im curious of i need to purchase another dragon pickaxe and hatchet.

[Alg]

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

[Sylpheed]

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

[Miss Lioness]

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

[Alg]

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

What do you think removing a ton of them from the game in the process of upgrading them is going to do to their prices? Never mind that this upgrade system is a painfully transparent attempt to keep the prices up, when they're only so high to begin with because Jagex is on par with Bethesda when it comes to balance.

 

It's the Nex fiasco all over again. :wall:

[Hedgehog]

Dragon pickaxes shouldn't be worth more than 100k.

[Steph]

That's what I want to know urza, I know they implemented a way to remove picks for imcando so hopefully they thought this through

[Urza285]

That's what I want to know urza, I know they implemented a way to remove picks for imcando so hopefully they thought this through

How do you do that?

[Steph]

I believe the nymph would convert the one on your toolbelt

[helring]

 

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

 

 

The skills should be intertwined. PvM providing everything for pvm gear is an issue I think they should work on. Smithing/Crafting was supposed to provide the supplies for combat originally.  Bossing should just supply a piece of armour/weapons that needs to be combined with other supplies from skilling to make the gear.

[Sorator]

 

That's what I want to know urza, I know they implemented a way to remove picks for imcando so hopefully they thought this through

How do you do that?

 

I think you just talk to the guy and he takes it from your toolbelt? I'm not actually sure, as I haven't made an imcando myself. (Not being able to keep it on my toolbelt is a dealbreaker.)

 

I agree that they probably should remove the dragon pickaxe requirement of the imcando. It's unnecessary. I'm not sure that we need the upgrade mechanic for the crystal versions, but I'm willing to let that slide (in no small part because I already own both dragon tools, so I'm not really losing anything from it.)

 

I find their explanation of durations for the combined overload+antifire interesting... so you can just bring one combo pot and one overload and sip the overload when the overload portion of the combo runs out, yes? Still saves one inventory space, so it's not a bad idea.

 

I'm not sure why it'd be that difficult to code "whenever you empty a crystal flask, it breaks, even if you're decanting and not drinking the contents", but... *shrug*. I vaguely recall weird restrictions on similar actions with regular potion flasks (I can't decant a 5-dose into two regular vials? WHY NOT?); I think it'd be easy to change that to the above, but that's just me.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

 

The skills should be intertwined. PvM providing everything for pvm gear is an issue I think they should work on. Smithing/Crafting was supposed to provide the supplies for combat originally. Bossing should just supply a piece of armour/weapons that needs to be combined with other supplies from skilling to make the gear.

 

Like how you had to have high smithing, or pay an NPC, to combine the metal shards and make the dragon platebody? IIRC there's a smithing requirement on combining the Godsword pieces as well, but I could be wrong on that.

 

I thought that was a really cool idea which didn't see enough use because the dragon platebody kinda sucked.

[stealthchris117]

I believe the nymph would convert the one on your toolbelt

 

If looking to Guild she will guild one on your toolbelt or in your inv. If you go to the dwarf at mudskipper point to get the imcando and have a dragon pick in your toolbelt he will offer to use that one. You can't remove it from your toolbelt yourself. He will take it and you will be left with a base pick in your toolbelt and an imcando pickaxe in your inventory. This is what I did a few weeks ago when I got my Pickaxe. I then just added a rune to my toolbelt since I don't want to spend another 16m or whatever it is right now for another Dragon Pickaxe.

[Saradomin_Mage]

Well, now I'm really mad that I even made the Imcando pickaxe lol.

[stealthchris117]

Well, now I'm really mad that I even made the Imcando pickaxe lol.

 

Same. I spent a bunch of time getting the pieces and made it a few weeks ago and now I need another dragon pickaxe... What a waste of money. I really wanted the crystal to not need the Dragon stuff... But I guess we can't make Dragon items lose their value now can we? ...... sigh .....

[helring]

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

 

The skills should be intertwined. PvM providing everything for pvm gear is an issue I think they should work on. Smithing/Crafting was supposed to provide the supplies for combat originally. Bossing should just supply a piece of armour/weapons that needs to be combined with other supplies from skilling to make the gear.

 

Like how you had to have high smithing, or pay an NPC, to combine the metal shards and make the dragon platebody? IIRC there's a smithing requirement on combining the Godsword pieces as well, but I could be wrong on that.

 

I thought that was a really cool idea which didn't see enough use because the dragon platebody kinda sucked.

 

 

 

More like actually requiring skilling materials. So boss dropped pieces plus a bunch of gems/bars/logs/runes/hides/whatever. Right now the skilling materials aren't very useful for actually making anything and are mostly just exp gain items.

[Sorator]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

 

The skills should be intertwined. PvM providing everything for pvm gear is an issue I think they should work on. Smithing/Crafting was supposed to provide the supplies for combat originally. Bossing should just supply a piece of armour/weapons that needs to be combined with other supplies from skilling to make the gear.

 

 

 

Like how you had to have high smithing, or pay an NPC, to combine the metal shards and make the dragon platebody? IIRC there's a smithing requirement on combining the Godsword pieces as well, but I could be wrong on that.

 

I thought that was a really cool idea which didn't see enough use because the dragon platebody kinda sucked.

 

 

 

More like actually requiring skilling materials. So boss dropped pieces plus a bunch of gems/bars/logs/runes/hides/whatever. Right now the skilling materials aren't very useful for actually making anything and are mostly just exp gain items.

 

That would be nice as well, aye. I hate that 99 smithing lets you make t50 equipment - woooo. Crafting & fletching aren't much better, as far as making useful equipment goes.

[stealthchris117]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

 

The skills should be intertwined. PvM providing everything for pvm gear is an issue I think they should work on. Smithing/Crafting was supposed to provide the supplies for combat originally. Bossing should just supply a piece of armour/weapons that needs to be combined with other supplies from skilling to make the gear.

 

 

 

Like how you had to have high smithing, or pay an NPC, to combine the metal shards and make the dragon platebody? IIRC there's a smithing requirement on combining the Godsword pieces as well, but I could be wrong on that.

 

I thought that was a really cool idea which didn't see enough use because the dragon platebody kinda sucked.

 

 

 

More like actually requiring skilling materials. So boss dropped pieces plus a bunch of gems/bars/logs/runes/hides/whatever. Right now the skilling materials aren't very useful for actually making anything and are mostly just exp gain items.

 

That would be nice as well, aye. I hate that 99 smithing lets you make t50 equipment - woooo. Crafting & fletching aren't much better, as far as making useful equipment goes.

 

 

But we are getting a smithing rework and then they will use the smithing rework to help with crafting. Don't you remember that thing they promised and may deliver on some day?

[baileydafrog]

 

 

That's what I want to know urza, I know they implemented a way to remove picks for imcando so hopefully they thought this through

How do you do that?

 

I think you just talk to the guy and he takes it from your toolbelt? I'm not actually sure, as I haven't made an imcando myself. (Not being able to keep it on my toolbelt is a dealbreaker.)

 

I agree that they probably should remove the dragon pickaxe requirement of the imcando. It's unnecessary. I'm not sure that we need the upgrade mechanic for the crystal versions, but I'm willing to let that slide (in no small part because I already own both dragon tools, so I'm not really losing anything from it.)

 

I find their explanation of durations for the combined overload+antifire interesting... so you can just bring one combo pot and one overload and sip the overload when the overload portion of the combo runs out, yes? Still saves one inventory space, so it's not a bad idea.

 

I'm not sure why it'd be that difficult to code "whenever you empty a crystal flask, it breaks, even if you're decanting and not drinking the contents", but... *shrug*. I vaguely recall weird restrictions on similar actions with regular potion flasks (I can't decant a 5-dose into two regular vials? WHY NOT?); I think it'd be easy to change that to the above, but that's just me.

 

 

 

 

 

I think I'll just stick with rune until they make a tool that isn't stupid to get.

What's stupid about Dragon Hatchet/Pickaxe again?

 

PvM method to obtain a non-PvM required item. Thats like pickpocketing would grant drygores.

 

The skills should be intertwined. PvM providing everything for pvm gear is an issue I think they should work on. Smithing/Crafting was supposed to provide the supplies for combat originally. Bossing should just supply a piece of armour/weapons that needs to be combined with other supplies from skilling to make the gear.

 

Like how you had to have high smithing, or pay an NPC, to combine the metal shards and make the dragon platebody? IIRC there's a smithing requirement on combining the Godsword pieces as well, but I could be wrong on that.

 

I thought that was a really cool idea which didn't see enough use because the dragon platebody kinda sucked.

 

there's also ports gear and the level 90 gear

[helring]

Neither of which really require skilling materials. The materials you get from skilling should be made valueable not just the levels themselves.

[Hedgehog]

I'm going to post a bit of an essay here about why upgrading items is terrible for 2 reasons: 1) so I can quote it if the issue reappears in the future and 2) because Osborne asked me to be more specific when I [bleep]ed at him on twitter and there's no way I can do that in 140 characters.

 

If you've established that items should only be used after a certain requirement has been reached, which has been fundamental to RuneScape since its creation, then it is imperative that that model is not completely turned on its head. That is, if an item is meant to be unlocked at level 60, then it should be used at level 60. If someone above level 60 is not using that item, then the system has failed. Therefore, if level requirements exist, then they should represent the lowest level that the item can be used.

 

There are a number of examples of this system failing in RuneScape, but perhaps the most obvious is with Dungeoneering. Herbicides, for example, require only 21 Dungeoneering but can only be purchased with 34k tokens. Until the release of Sinkholes, it was impossible to buy herbicide until level 62. If the designers insist that 34k tokens is a fair price for herbicides, then the requirement to use them should be 62 Dungeoneering. Likewise, if 21 Dungeoneering seems like a fair requirement, then they should only cost 500 tokens. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but there is not an advantage to such misaligned requirements and the misalignment thereof only serves to create an unintuitive and confusing gaming experience.

 

Not all failures have been created explicitly, however. Before EoC it was common for players with 99 in all of their combat skills to use level 60 weapons during combat. Dragon claws, the most popular of these level 60 weapons, sold from between 20m and 60m, depending on how far from their release their price was examined. This price was more than fair for someone with 99 in all skills. To a maxed player, that was a few days of monster hunting at most. As balanced as this was for a maxed player, it caused serious problems for low levels. With the exception of pures who transferred money from their main, almost no one between 60 and 70 attack could afford to use dragon claws. Because maxed players could afford to pay 20m or more for dragon claws, dragon claws sold for 20m or more. The market for an item isn't determined by those that should be using it, but rather by the wealthiest who are using it.

 

If maxed players use an item, then its price will reflect that. For items like dragon pickaxes, where members use them because they're the best item in the slot, this is fine in the short term. Over the long term, players will be far past the requirement to use an item before they can afford it, but this is the cost of not filling out every tier all at once and it's a cost that most players are willing to accept.

 

However, it is a serious problem when the price of an item is inflated when it isn't the best in its slot. There is only one reason why this happens: item upgrades.

 

Look at the price of super attacks. They do not cost that much because of demand from players who can't use overloads. They do not cost that much because of the scarcity of their ingredients. They cost that much because they're used to make overloads. The effectiveness of using super attack and strength potions is severely diminished by the fact that they're used to create the best potions in the game. It doesn't help that they're a requirement for absurdly fast herblore xp either.

 

Look at the price of dragon crossbows. They are not that expensive because they're a rare drop from tormented demons. Dragon claws are just as rare and they cost a tiny fraction of what dragon crossbows cost. They are that expensive because maxed players are buying them to make ascension crossbows. Before the release of elder shortbows, the only feasible way of going from 60 to 70 ranged was to use chinchompas. In the time it would have taken a player to make the 20m it would have cost them to buy a dragon crossbow, they could have trained well into the 80s with chinchompas.

 

When maxed players use an item beyond the requirement of the next item, for example using a dragon crossbow beyond level 70, they control its market and lower levels, who have lower incomes, are locked from using it.

 

Even if it's decided that lower levels don't matter, upgrading items still causes serious issues in the form of power creep. For those unfamiliar with power creep, it's the phenomenon where the game becomes increasingly easier over time due to the release of new, stronger weapons.

 

Let's say that Jagex releases level 90 two-handed weapons that require level 80 weapons, specifically a level 90 staff that requires a Virtus wand. Players with 99 magic, and incomes that reflect their level, have to kill Nex, by proxy or otherwise, to use the new tier of weapons. That is, that players with level 90 staves are killing Nex because Nex is still a viable source of income for them. If Nex is easy with level 80 weapons, she's a lot easier with level 90 weapons. That is power creep.

 

Let's say that Jagex decides not to take this path. Instead, level 90 staves are simply dropped by a new boss. There is no market for Virtus wands. Killing Nex isn't any harder than it would have been if Jagex chose the upgrading path, but it's no longer worth it for maxed players to kill Nex. The demand for Nex items will cause their prices to fall to a point where it's only worth it for lower levels to kill Nex and Nex remains a challenging boss.

 

This is the same reason why we don't have to worry about how new weapons will affect power creep related to cows. No one cares that a maxed player can completely clear a cow field in less than 5 seconds using Seismics. Maxed players don't kill cows. Cows are designed for players between, say, 1 and 10 in each of their combat levels. If maxed players don't kill a monster, then it avoids power creep altogether.

 

If you want your game to be friendly to lower levels and be devoid of serious power creep, don't let your players upgrade their weapons. It's not worth the cost.

[Unknown_Warrior]

The thing is, is that monter hunting is fundamentally flawed as well. You bring up Tormented Demons dropping lvl 60 gear, which is true, but they are in NO WAY intended for a level 60 player with level 60 gear. This isn't just TDs. Even way back, when KBD was released, he was not intended to be killed by lvl 60 players (but it wasn't too bad then). Kalphite Queen, however, was full-blown lvl70+ for lvl60 drops. GWD? Was not intended for lvl 75s. Corporeal Beast? Definitely not intended for lvl 75s. Nex? Again definitely not intended for lvl 80s.

It's fundamentally flawed. If they make these drops less desirable, the monster will stop being killed. If the monster is stopped being killed, no more items will enter the market.

[Rena]

Agree 100%.

 

Powercreep is inevitable in an MMO unless the highest ends of the game have been filled out - at which point the game stagnates and grows boring). Of course I do agree it should be a slow, gradual curve and not an insane power spike.

 

But moving onto what I think is the more important issue:

If a Dragon Crossbow is meant for users with 60 range to use - it should be at a cost that level 60's can afford. If they can't afford it - Jagex needs to ask themselves "why" and if there is anything they can do to fix it.

 

Ascensions could have used another Crossbow created by "crossbow pieces" dropped by the lower levelled Ascensions monsters and to combine into let's say... a tier 75 crossbow. Then you use the Signets to create Ascensions from it.

 

The tier 70/75 Crossbow would be a viable replacement to Chaotics for those who don't want to grind the tokens or lack the levels - they can still release a Dragon Crossbow at Tormented Demons - and everything is balanced. Having to be built from 3 different parts and perhaps be equivalent in rarity to an Armadyl Crossbow could justify it being the same/slightly higher level.

[strilmus]

it's not even power creep, they just never designed the game to work with all the levels it had, and then pushed everybody into that zone when they made skillcapes and then in a third genius stroke, designed the game around those players rather than the ones that their content was actually meant to serve

 

if they had just capped the levels where their content ended, they could have saved themselves all the trouble