Junk Trading: Acceptable, Practical Practice?

[acenator]

Thus Junk items are needed to help fix certain items. A quick fix for this is obviously moving all the ppl they had fighting bots to just maintain constant prices.

 

 

 

Party hats and other rares are at an all time low, which in my mind goes against all logical predictions. Hell even Duke Freedom predicted they would always rise in the end, even if they had small dips. But of course the GE does not simulate a free market because his prediction here is awfully wrong.

 

Actually, the best fix would be to make the GE adjust because of both completed and uncomplete trades. At least for rarer, more expensive items, anyways.

 

 

 

My personal opinion of why phats and such have fallen is that, because of the ease the GE offered and the "transformation" of merching, a bunch of people are now trying to sell their phats while the demand is remaining stagnant, or, possibly because of certain updates like GWD and summoning, even falling (again, this is just my opinion, so don't quote me on it).

 

 

 

As for my opinion on junk trading itself, I think that is fairly apparent with my previous posts on this thread, but I will just state it clearly here. I am a proponent of junk trading as long as Jagex refuses to fix the broken system that they created. After they finally get around to making the GE adjust more consistently with realtime prices and removing all the price floors and ceilings, there will no longer be a need for junk trading since and, therefore, there won't be a need for me to suppor it.

[green9090]

A couple people have posted wondering why rare items are going down. This is completely due to supply and demand, and there are several factors at work here.

 

 

 

First, the supply and demand of many items was hidden before the GE. Maples logs stayed steady at 100 ea because so many people had thousands upon thousands they were going to sell some day but didn't have time for. Along comes instant trading at the click of the mouse and, surprise, billions of maple logs clog the GE. They are pretty cheap now. Similarly, people have found it easier than ever to put their rare item up for sale. This by itself wouldn't have an effect, but it does contribute to the problem.

 

 

 

You see, there are many things in the game for rich people to spend money on. I can go out and buy 99 firemaking in a matter of hours from the GE in maple logs if I want. Same with cooking, prayer, herblore, smithing, and every other buyable skill. Summoning is an especially big contributer, being both expensive and new. God wars items continue to drop in price, getting toward the levels at which moderately wealthy players can consider buying them. When somebody decides they're willing to cash in their santa hat collection for a 99 skill or some shiny Bandos and an SGS, it's easier than ever to pop it in the GE at low, rather than spending hours in world 2 trying to find a deal.

 

 

 

Another cause is the across the board drop in prices, in general. Money making methods are worth less than usual for the most part, especially the ones that actually let people buy rares. A notable example is barrows- prices just keep dropping. As a result, many have less disposable income, and are willing to pay less and less for an item that is entirely for show.

 

 

 

Finally, rares used to be an investment. When people, including myself, saw that the GE was causing nothing but price drops in the rare item department, we bailed. I didn't have my masks to show off, I had them to hold a solid chunk of my net worth in appreciating assets- that is, items which will reliably go up in price. This is no longer the case, which removes the whole point of rares for many, many wealthy players.

[NukeMarine]

Here's the irony: Jagex cannot claim that "Junk" trading is illegal without saying that the prices that JAGEX set were, well, "Junk".

 

 

 

Player A and B trading a Sheep Mask and 4000 addy javelins for 5 million gp is paying EXACTLY what Jagex said they must pay. The term "Junk" is a player made term, with no association with Jagex. The players are playing within the rules that Jagex gave them and the values that JAGEX set.

 

 

 

Now, Jagex can cure "junk" trading tomorrow with just a few lines of code. All it need do is remove the price floor. Once "junk" has a value that reflects player's concept of that value, no one will use it in trades. Oh, and while they're at it: allowing bidding and selling outside the 5% window (though not allow completion of trade) to help move the average price. Also, allow decimal bids for lower price items (say .1 for 100 gp or less and .01 for 10 gp or less).

 

 

 

Anyway, bottom line, it's only cheating the system if you assume the system doesn't know about it. Jagex is fully aware and allowing it to happen.

[insanitarium]

I dislike it because when i was trying to sell my green mask, everyone was trading pouches and scrolls >.<

 

 

 

I think "junk" is only a way to lose money as its not sell-able.

 

 

 

You can get a return on it when YOU couple your item with junk when selling.

[davidium]

the only reason why people junk trade is because of the stupid trade limit that jagex imposes...ok correction the trade limit is not stupid...it is the way jagex controls it that makes it stupid...purple and yellow phats sell for over 140M on the ge but ive seen ppl selling them for 80M or even all junk on rsof...jagex cannot be bothered to take the effort to alter the prices of items which are incorrectly valued leading to the introduction of junk trade...

 

 

 

for those who don't like junk trade chose an option 1) sell your item immediately with some cash and some junks or 2) don't sell your item and watch its price free-fall...you decide =)

[Saru Inc]

Junk Trading is both good and bad; if GE prices are messed up, Junk Trading can be a fast way of getting the item(s), but, if no one sells on GE, the prices will stay the same, thus causing more Junk Trading. I personally, use it sometimes, but I always inform the person of what they're getting. It's really not scamming, they both know what they're getting.

[benar]

I believe that the only thing that makes a junk trade iffy is whether on not you will be able to use that junk again in another trade. I mean... if it's junk than it's junk, and you could use it again, but the question is will you have the opportunity.

[acenator]

I believe that the only thing that makes a junk trade iffy is whether on not you will be able to use that junk again in another trade. I mean... if it's junk than it's junk, and you could use it again, but the question is will you have the opportunity.

 

Yes, but even if Jagex does fix the GE, then that junk is no longer junk because of the simple fact that, for the right price (fairly low probably), you will be able to sell it and get some extra cash out of it.

 

 

 

So, now we look at the people who got rid of the junk. Do they care that they pretty much just gave away that junk that is no longer junk? My guess is that there will be a few upset about how they lost out on the opportunity to use the GE and, in the process, lost those items that would then be sellable, but, for the most part, people who junk traded will be happy with the results of said trades. They knew what they were doing and they at least suspected that, at some point, Jagex might come out, admit their mistakes, and fix the GE.

[amitoz]

you're not selling it for a ridiculous high, unfair price you're selling it for the true price. it's just a way of getting around jagex's incompetence :|

 

 

 

No the true price is the GE price.

 

 

 

Like it or not what Jagex say an item is worth, is what it is worth. Adding "junk" to it isn't selling it for more, it's adding to it's value.

 

 

 

Also if people do junk trade then the GE will never have the "correct" price in it as most junk trades consist of med price.

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, because Jagex totally plays RS right?

 

Players are pretty much the beta testers for RS, everything they release has to be refined AFTER release...

 

 

 

Sometimes I wonder, if i found i glitch of new released content in 10 minutes, how did Jagex's Beta team not find it in months of testing?

[green9090]

Sometimes I wonder, if i found i glitch of new released content in 10 minutes, how did Jagex's Beta team not find it in months of testing?

 

I've wondered that as well, and have two theories:

 

First, perhaps the testers don't know enough about RS to know that some things are bugs. Maybe pets are supposed to act as safespots.

 

 

 

Second, perhaps they never test content by simply playing normally. It's quite possible they become tunnel visioned into "try everything possible to see if you can break x" that they don't even notice a bigger more obvious bug that you find over the course of normal play.

 

 

 

Either way, something is definitely wrong if bugs are getting out that most players are affected by.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

Sometimes I wonder, if i found i glitch of new released content in 10 minutes, how did Jagex's Beta team not find it in months of testing?

 

I've wondered that as well, and have two theories:

 

First, perhaps the testers don't know enough about RS to know that some things are bugs. Maybe pets are supposed to act as safespots.

 

 

 

Second, perhaps they never test content by simply playing normally. It's quite possible they become tunnel visioned into "try everything possible to see if you can break x" that they don't even notice a bigger more obvious bug that you find over the course of normal play.

 

 

 

Either way, something is definitely wrong if bugs are getting out that most players are affected by.

 

I believe that there's a third alternative. You see, everyone plays the game/uses content differently. Perhaps someone found a unique and out-of-the-box method to break the content, which is why the bug was never picked up.

 

 

 

Of course, at this point in time, it's something that's probably not code-breaking, but more or less, still needs to be fixed.

[gspbeetle]

Here's the irony: Jagex cannot claim that "Junk" trading is illegal without saying that the prices that JAGEX set were, well, "Junk".

 

 

 

Player A and B trading a Sheep Mask and 4000 addy javelins for 5 million gp is paying EXACTLY what Jagex said they must pay. The term "Junk" is a player made term, with no association with Jagex. The players are playing within the rules that Jagex gave them and the values that JAGEX set.

 

 

 

Now, Jagex can cure "junk" trading tomorrow with just a few lines of code. All it need do is remove the price floor. Once "junk" has a value that reflects player's concept of that value, no one will use it in trades. Oh, and while they're at it: allowing bidding and selling outside the 5% window (though not allow completion of trade) to help move the average price. Also, allow decimal bids for lower price items (say .1 for 100 gp or less and .01 for 10 gp or less).

 

 

 

Anyway, bottom line, it's only cheating the system if you assume the system doesn't know about it. Jagex is fully aware and allowing it to happen.

 

 

 

Emergent gameplay, approved by andrew -.-

 

 

 

[hide=]http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=602654[/hide]

[Hobnjall]

Junk trading is useful in emergencies. My clan uses addie javelins for trade sticks.

 

 

 

We had an impromptu birthday party for a mate, and fished for a couple of hours to help him get to 99 fishing. One clannie wanted to contribute a *ton* of monks, and had to go. I traded him stuff like 2 dlongs, rune weapons, and addie javs and stuff just because he had to go. I'm poor, and don't carry that kind of money in my bank. But I had the assets to cover.

 

 

 

Sometimes you do what you have to in a tight spot.

[De_Lille_D]

The reason why people junk trade, is the difference between the GE value and the value players give that item. People who use junk trading disagree with the GE price and think they can impose any price they want. This is not acceptable! When Jagex choses a price, it's to balance out the game. The GE prices should be respected, even though they sometimes seem unfair. Not doing so will only push Jagex to change the trading system. If people are too greedy to accept the prices, we will all have to suffer the consequences!

 

 

 

Jagex tried free demand-and-supply trading before; it failed when scammers could do what they wanted. So they introdused the trade limit.

 

Now they are trying to controll prices from fluxuating with the GE. But if this fail, they'll change it too. And believe me: they'll make it worse!

 

Did you ever think about the concequenses of doing whatever you want? You saw what they did to the wild, when scammers and macroers were taking control.

 

They will stop at nothing to remove something they think is ruining their game.

 

 

 

Maybe this time they make a limit to trade only 1 item at a time. Or even worse: no more player-to-player trades! They could just remove all the trades and put fixed prices in the GE. These are just a few examples; I'm sure you can come up with a lot more ways to stop junk trading...

 

 

 

So, if you don't want to sell at GE prices, don't sell at all! You can only push Jagex so far.

[INFINTEBAJAN2]

ok how do i junk trade?

[Nagrom_17]

i definitely do not support junk because it is pointless. but one thing i dont get is why dont people just sell max on ge then the price goes up? the reason jagex hasnt "fixed" the prices is because they want us to fix them by selling at max so price goes up until its at the price that players want it at.

[darlok]

Its fine in my opinion, Jagex doesnt allow for normal economics, any economist could have predicted that controlled prices would not work.

[elite_jamie]

Junk trading only exists because the Grand Exchange is out of tune with player prices, as player prices fluctuate wildy and it can't cope with this.

 

 

 

To eliminate junk trading all Jagex would have to do is make the prices update more frequently on static items and let US decide the prices of new items.

 

 

 

I don't know if anyone remembers but Jagex said they'd let us decide the price of new items, this was a blatant lie.

 

 

 

The new animal masks are hardly going up at all because people see the prices that the players are paying, they compare it with the Exchange price and they are being forced to not sell on there as they don't want to rip themselves off.

 

 

 

If Jagex is getting rid of junk and not allowing the prices to reach the proper player prices, then they're screwed basically.

[tortilliachp]

This topic has been very interesting. i'm a typical lurker, but i'll post for once:

 

 

 

I'll try to sort out some common misconceptions first, then the uses for these in how YOU can profit off of how the current system is. Finally i'll get around to some common misconceptions around how you "gain back" money from doing certain things with junk.

 

 

 

In short: junk trading is almost only actually profitable when you sell stuff with junk that you have bought. when you buy items that come along with junk, don't expect being able to sell the junk, other than possibly along with the item you bought.

 

 

 

 

 

The profit-making with junk lies with buying items lower than the median price.

 

 

 

explanation:when using them as junk for a trade, the difference between the median price and the price you paid is the amount you're making on that item. 100% of the time.

 

 

 

example: I buy strung gold amulets at 210 gp ea (instant buy on ge). their median price on ge is 240gp. I use these strung gold amulets as junk, i profit 30 gp on each of them, and no more however you turn things around. The other person may find these amulets impossible to sell, and it therefore acts to that person as if they've paid the whole price for the item, including the junk. When the person resells the junk for a median price, that is when you can evaluate that person's loss/gain off of the junk, because the price might have altered.

 

 

 

 

 

* Profiting off of junk, is in effect merchanting.

 

 

 

explanation: you buy junk for less than the median price, and sell it for more. That is, in effect, merchanting in a sense where you don't need the market to fluctuate to profit.

 

 

 

Example: you buy or attain junk for less than its medium price: You buy howl scrolls for minimum price. you use it as junk in a trade, which is in effect selling it for the median price. that does in no way differ from buying rune essence at medium price, and selling it for maximum (or close to maximum) price. Essence is one of the most common, and profitable ways of merchanting on the GE today.

 

 

 

* To profit off of junk trades, you must buy your junk lower than medium price OR recieve junk sellable at more than median price in the GE

 

 

 

explanation: Time makes creating your own junk never worth it, unless you profit more of that in the timeframe of other ways of moneymaking. money/time is the only way of accuratly portraying gain. A good moneymaker has the best money/time ratio, but at the same time you have to be able to spend time on the moneymaker to earn money, you therefore need a moneymaker you like.

 

 

 

example: I have lvl 82 runecrafting. I can average in any given hour the creation of 4k astral runes. That is a gain of about 400k an hour when i have subtracted teh costs of my raw materials. The difference is value of the amount of RS gp my work as put into circulation in the rs economy (which isn't neccessary for a moneymaker because you can profit off of other people, instead of creating values). IF i were to spend an hour creating junk, the only way that would be a better moneymaker than runecrafting for me, is if i could profit 400k an hour or more, or spend more time on creating junk, because i manage to stay focus longer. That doesn't mean i wouldn't be making money creating junk, but i wouldn't be making money as effectivly, there are better alternatives available for me to make money.

 

 

 

To earn off of junk effectivly, it is therefore neccessary for me to buy or sell the junk (as producing it is less effective than other options available to me) and the above blue statement is proven true. therefore the regular rules of how to profit of merchanting apply.

 

 

 

* Items have different values to different people based on what amount of effort they intend on spending recieving the value out of their item

 

 

 

Explanation: The time you spend selling /buying items is part of the ratio of money/time that determines if your moneymaker is good or bad. Therefore, even if i can sell my junk, the time spent doing so does not make it worth it 99% of the time, unless i can actually sell it on the ge. The time an item is in the GE doesn't count because you don't activly have to be there.

 

 

 

Example: Junk is often created as by-products that aren't worth the time spent on trying to sell them. I got 99 magic by stringing gold amulets, leaving me with 27k strung gold amulets. The time and effort i would need to spend on selling those gold amulets, make it less economically beneficial to me, than doing something completely different, like rune mining, where i average more money/time more commonly refered to as "money per hour" That means in effect the gold amulets i have in the ge, are worth nothing to me. Whenever i sell one, it is pure profit, because i never expected i would ever sell any of them. however, since i'm attempting to sell my gold amulets at minimum price, anyone could profit off using them as junk, because they could buy them for less than the medium price. The only person loosing out, is the person recieving the junk to whom it seems they are paying the full price for the item, because they cannot believe they can sell those items for the minimum price, much less the median one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now then, after going through these commonly used practices in determining what useful, and profitable junk trading is, now how to use those "rules" in making the junk trading most profitable for you:

 

 

 

1. Find out what YOU value the items you either trade or sell. What are you going to do with them?

 

a) IF you buy junk, at what value do you think you can sell the junk for.

 

b)IF you sell junk, what value does the junk have to you in "money/time" and therefore, what value does it have to you, if it's just sitting there in the bank.

 

 

 

2. Try to get "good" junk. by that i mean:

 

a)buy only junk that can be sold for as close to the median price as possible. I'll get back to alching /exchanging junk in the common misconceptions part of the post.

 

B) sell only junk that you have bought for minimum price. whatever the prices are, you're then making 5% on the junk. nothing more.

 

c) for junk you naturally have in your bank, that you never expected on selling, or have spent extra effort on getting, always use that junk first, as it is 100% profit, compared to your bought junk.

 

 

 

3. be aware that prices on junk may vary.

 

a) if you buy junk, make sure the price on the junk doesn't fall. If the price on you junk does fall, so does your profit by as much.

 

B) if you sell junk, make sure the price on the junk doesn't fall. IF the price on your junk does fall, so does your profit by as much.

 

 

 

4. Never spend time getting junk unless you know it's better money an hour than other moneymakers.

 

 

 

5. try to exchange junk for other junk, but always keep in mind the money divided by time factor.

 

a) if you've bought junk, you know it 99% of the time sells for less than it's median price. trade it for junk you can profit on. you'd be amazed to know how many people have "stupid" junk that you profit, or loose less on selling.

 

B) of course never trade your junk in the same way, because if someone wants to do such a trade with you, 99% of the time, your junk is better than theirs for selling.

 

 

 

6. Avoid alching junk. Again, almost all times you can spend your time more effectivly making money other ways, of course unless you want the mage xp which is then "free" as a byproduct of exchanging junk for money. remember to calculate the price for nats whether you're runecrafting them yourself, or whether you're buying them, because even if you runecraft them, you could always sell nats for more profit than using them (with very few exceptions).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

conclusion: These are just the most general aspects of junk-trading, but probably also some of the most basic ones. In short: junk trading is almost only actually profitable when you sell stuff with junk that you have bought. when you buy items that come along with junk, don't expect being able to sell the junk, other than possibly along with the item you bought.

[acenator]

The reason why people junk trade, is the difference between the GE value and the value players give that item. People who use junk trading disagree with the GE price and think they can impose any price they want. This is not acceptable! When Jagex choses a price, it's to balance out the game. The GE prices should be respected, even though they sometimes seem unfair. Not doing so will only push Jagex to change the trading system. If people are too greedy to accept the prices, we will all have to suffer the consequences!

 

 

 

Jagex tried free demand-and-supply trading before; it failed when scammers could do what they wanted. So they introdused the trade limit.

 

Now they are trying to controll prices from fluxuating with the GE. But if this fail, they'll change it too. And believe me: they'll make it worse!

 

Did you ever think about the concequenses of doing whatever you want? You saw what they did to the wild, when scammers and macroers were taking control.

 

They will stop at nothing to remove something they think is ruining their game.

 

 

 

Maybe this time they make a limit to trade only 1 item at a time. Or even worse: no more player-to-player trades! They could just remove all the trades and put fixed prices in the GE. These are just a few examples; I'm sure you can come up with a lot more ways to stop junk trading...

 

 

 

So, if you don't want to sell at GE prices, don't sell at all! You can only push Jagex so far.

 

All Jagex has to do to stop junk trading is fix the GE prices to where supply and demand would have them. They said they were going to leave the economy in the hands of the players when they released the GE, but price ceilings and floors and the lack of flexibility in the GE prices (which can be easily fixed through the use of both completed and uncomplete trades when calculating prices) and the lack of concern for these problems by Jagex go against that statement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i definitely do not support junk because it is pointless. but one thing i dont get is why dont people just sell max on ge then the price goes up? the reason jagex hasnt "fixed" the prices is because they want us to fix them by selling at max so price goes up until its at the price that players want it at.

 

Because to do so would mean losing millions of gp trying to fix something that should be, and could be fairly easily, fixed by those who created it.

[Alg]

Its fine in my opinion, Jagex doesnt allow for normal economics, any economist could have predicted that controlled prices would not work.

 

Although, in a normal, player controlled economy, how many players would pay 30 million for an animal mask? 15 for a top hat? whatever the price is of a cane, for it?

[L33tdemon]

 

Although, in a normal, player controlled economy, how many players would pay 30 million for an animal mask? 15 for a top hat? whatever the price is of a cane, for it?

 

 

 

Yes you've exposed the fact that because the GE updates slowly rare items get their prices raised exponentially.

 

 

 

Junk trading is also very irritating because it takes so much time to gather the junk, it's why the prices get inflated so much.

 

 

 

It's a necessary yet annoying thing.

[acenator]

Its fine in my opinion, Jagex doesnt allow for normal economics, any economist could have predicted that controlled prices would not work.

 

Although, in a normal, player controlled economy, how many players would pay 30 million for an animal mask? 15 for a top hat? whatever the price is of a cane, for it?

 

Enough to make it the average price... It's supply and demand. If there are enough people out there willing to pay a certain price for an item so that sellers don't have to wait "too long," then they'll sell at that price. If there aren't many players willing to pay that much, then sellers will lower their prices until the demand increases to the point at which sellers don't have to wait "too long."

 

 

 

This works the other way around as well. If buyers are trying to buy at a certain price, but can't find any sellers, they'll wither raise their offer or opt out of the market until there are enough people willing to sell for the price being offered so that the buyers don't have to wait "too long."

 

 

 

When new items come out, there will always be some people out there willing to pay large sums of money to be among the first to have one such item. Add this to the fact that the supply is extremely low and you get have yourself an expensive item. However, as time passes, the people willing to pay more buy theirs and leave the market to people paying less. This, along with that fact that more of the item are coming into the game and increasing the number of people trying to sell (meaning more people can get theirs at those higher prices that they're willing to pay and leave the market), works to lower prices until they stabilise and begin their much slower descent as more and more come into the game while more and more people enter the market as buyers as said price lowers.

[green9090]

To add to the above post, animal masks wouldn't cost so much anymore in a free market. The GE is forcing the prices to remain high for a few reasons.

 

 

 

First, gathering enough junk to sell them at a non-ridiculous price is a lot of work. Most people who currently own an animal mask are probably hanging on to it until the GE price goes up. This creates an artificial scarcity. Sellers are hard to find, so the price stays high. This same thing is the reason why, as soon as the GE reaches the correct price, it will swing back down again as all this hidden supply enters the market. Then they will become scarce again as people who don't want to sell the masks get them, and the price swings up again. Rinse and repeat for a few weeks. This is exactly what happened with Bandos and Zamorak Godswords a while ago.

 

 

 

Second, junk does have some intrinsic value. When you pay 15mil for the mask, part of that cost is really overhead for the junk gathering, since if you want to make another junk trade you get to reuse the junk. The mask itself, even with the artificial scarcity, would cost less without the junk aspect.

[benar]

And that brings me back to my original points... is it really worth it because of the hard work it takes to gather all of that junk?

 

 

 

But you are completely right. There is an artificial scarcity. Junk trading could help to fix that... but only if everyone accepted it.