TIF is bit over-moderated

[Obtaurian]

As has already been said, TIF received a contradictory statement from Jagex saying the opposite.

 

Really? Can I see this quote? Oh, wait . . .

 

And neither TIF or TEF are 'institutions'. Please get some perspective on this. Both are loosely affiliated not-for-profit communities run by volunteers and used by people with fandom for RuneScape.

 

Suddenly I feel like throwing morality to the wind! Being a volunteer for a not-for-profit community, I'm apparently exempt from utilizing that thing called reason!

[Ginger_Warrior]

It's already been explained why you can't see it, hence written proof is being obtained. Change the record.

 

As for morals, I'm not sure being unable to advertise a website on a RuneScape fansite really qualifies as some disgusting social illness we would all do well to avoid. Again, perspective please.

[Andy]

I like how dgs can get a mod reply on things via the clan forums quicker than tif can with it's direct connection to jagex. :thumbup:

[Obtaurian]

It's already been explained why you can't see it, hence written proof is being obtained. Change the record.

 

*whoosh*

 

As for morals, I'm not sure being unable to advertise a website on a RuneScape fansite really qualifies as some disgusting social illness we would all do well to avoid. Again, perspective please.

 

Wait, so is it the premise that 'innocent till proven guilty' should be applied to this situation, or the inability to advertise a Runescape fansite centered around helping people that qualifies as a non-issue to you? If it's both, I can safely ignore you henceforth, as you seem to lack perspective on the whole matter (see how easy it is to write your opponent off for 'not having perspective'?).

 

And just so you're aware (which you undoubtedly are not), the issue here is ultimately that Tip.it seems to have a difficult time supporting the metagaming community (a community revolving around helping other players through research and advanced guides, no less) and is actually hurting their own users by disallowing us to advertise here on the basis that we have AHK functions on our forums that have been proven (by an professional programmer) to follow Jagex's stated guidelines, and are claiming that these functions are illegal for very ambiguous reasons; guilty until proven innocent despite having zero evidence or sound reasoning to claim such.

 

I'm not sure if you play Runescape anymore, Ginger, but personally I like helping people and I would prefer to be able to point them in the right direction whenever possible, whether that means Tip.it or TEF. There've been plenty of questions in H&A that I've been unable to answer properly because I can't link to the relevant guide/research on TEF that would have helped those players immensely. The issue is that Tip.it administration are putting themselves before their forum users on the non-existent word of a "Jagex employee" who was apparently contacted via pigeon mail or smoke signals. Why this discussion has been allowed to continue for so long is beyond me, and I'm getting bored of waiting for a response while Tipiters are spamming my inbox asking for the guides/research that I can't post in their threads.

 

But apparently helping players is below you, Ginger, so anything I have to say will undoubtedly fall on deaf ears.

[Nifflin]

Ginger, I'm hesitant to say this but I think you will find that your defense really has no place in this thread. Given that this thread was designated by an admin as the place for staff criticism. Maybe you can create a "TIF Praise" thread in the forum feedback area. Please, it's not constructive at all when you argue about things which you don't understand fully.

[Andy]

Why is a global moderator okaying the use of ahk and allowing people to advertise it yet you're removing links to the ahk site? Quyneax's common sense approach is so much better than what has been going on with the other admin/mods.

 

http://forum.tip.it/topic/294547-mouse-keys/

 

Careful mentioning AHK, the mods and admins here think it is a botting program for some reason or another.

That's ridiculous. But yes, it can be used to bot, so be careful using it.

 

 

Hello Cheezedude,

 

I've removed a link to AutoHotKey from your signature.

 

The tip.it forum rules state that:

 

1.1 - Breaking or encouraging others to break any of Jagex's rules

 

• Violating Jagex's official

RuneScape Rules on this forum is cause for being permanently banned from the Tip.it forums.
 
This includes but is not limited to:

• Discussing how to cheat, hack, or otherwise manipulate the game
  
• Selling signatures, images, or other intellectual property for Runescape Gold
  
• Discussion of private servers--inviting, advertising, or otherwise
  
• Discussion of and / or using unapproved third party software (keyloggers, trojans, unapproved game clients) to gain unfair advantages
  

 

As this is an advertisement for third party software it breaks this rule and has been removed.

 

Thanks,

 

Y_Guy, super moderator

Oh not to mention that the link Y_guy removed wasn't anything to do with runescape.

[obfuscator]

You linked to a site for third party software that can be used to break runescape rules.

 

Notice how I said can. Mentioning the name of the program and blatantly advertising it are also two very different things.

[Andy]

Try using autohotkey, it's much more versatile and easier to use as long as you abide by the 1 input 1 output rule.

on that same thread. That's okay according to you then?

[green9090]

You linked to a site for third party software that can be used to break runescape rules.

 

Notice how I said can. Mentioning the name of the program and blatantly advertising it are also two very different things.

I assume you're removing links to all the other programming languages that can be used to create bots (read: all programming languages)? Because that's all ahk is- a scripting language.

 

Oh wait, you probably didn't know that. Good thing we have such knowledgeable people calling the shots around here. #-o

[Quyneax]

Cheeesy, you may consider that you haven't been the nicest person around this thread, and that TEF did have botting scripts on the site. Right now we don't entirely trust you when it comes to why you put that link in your sig. I'm being honest here: I suspect you only put the link there to see what we'd do with it and then complain about it. If you can prove to me you only put it there to be genuinly helpful to all who read your sig (ahem) then we can consider putting it back, but right now we don't really feel like it.

 

Jagex recommends that you don't use any sort of third party software besides regular Windows mousekeys. We don't want to disallow certain commonly used programs (SK, AHK) entirely but if we're unconvinced of your good intentions we will remove links. Now on that thread, it was posted in context, quite relevant.

 

In short, if you were a nice user with nothing whatsoever to do with pages of botting scripts, then yes, we may have left the link. As it stands you don't have our trust in this.

[The Observer]

It takes actual knowledge and understanding of the programming language to create a bot from scratch. Python (random programming language example - ignore any thoughts about it not working) is far different than operating AHK. If there were step by step instructions on how to do it in some other programming language, then it'll be treated the same way. A programming language in general is far more broad than AHK.

 

Just give them patience.

 

To Admins: I assume you have access to a special forum for Jagex-fansite communications? If not, I know a few of you are Player Moderators. It's not an abuse of power whatsoever asking for clarification of rules.

 

I'm not trying to cause any problems at all, don't think that at all - I'm just trying to find out any alternatives to emailing because it seems Jagex customer support is acting like it usually does (you'll be lucky to have a reply by Christmas in other words).

[SirHartlar]

So you are being uncompromising and unhelpful towards them because you dislike some of the TEF community? I thought the TIF staff said this wasn't personal.

[Lose No Hope]

In short, if you were a nice user with nothing whatsoever to do with pages of botting scripts, then yes, we may have left the link. As it stands you don't have our trust in this.

So if a random forum user had a link to AHK in their siggy, it would be allowed. And if he puts it in his siggy, it isn't allowed because you assume there are negative intentions behind it due to your distrust of him? That seems fair.

[Andy]

Cheeesy, you may consider that you haven't been the nicest person around this thread, and that TEF did have botting scripts on the site. Right now we don't entirely trust you when it comes to why you put that link in your sig. I'm being honest here: I suspect you only put the link there to see what we'd do with it and then complain about it. If you can prove to me you only put it there to be genuinly helpful to all who read your sig (ahem) then we can consider putting it back, but right now we don't really feel like it.

-----

Yes I put the link there to see what you guys would have done. I'm not sure why that matters - it only proves that the people policing these things don't really know what they're doing. Am I not allowed to put a link to ahk in my signature because i've not been nice? Who is going to police your naughty vs nice list?

 

 

Jagex recommends that you don't use any sort of third party software besides regular Windows mousekeys. We don't want to disallow certain commonly used programs (SK, AHK) entirely but if we're unconvinced of your good intentions we will remove links. Now on that thread, it was posted in context, quite relevant.

So autohotkey is only allowed sometimes?

 

 

In short, if you were a nice user with nothing whatsoever to do with pages of botting scripts, then yes, we may have left the link. As it stands you don't have our trust in this.

I'd love to know what the [bleep] you're talking about here enaid. When have I ever posted any bloody botting scripts?

[Quyneax]

In short, it comes down to moderator's discretion and how we percieve the whole of your posts.

 

And this will launch the next rant about how we can't possibly judge your intentions :rolleyes:.

[Andy]

You've obviously labeled me as a troll/not nice person and really I don't see why I'm [bleep]ing bothering with this thread anymore.

 

I'll re-post these again since you didn't reply to them.

Jagex recommends that you don't use any sort of third party software besides regular Windows mousekeys. We don't want to disallow certain commonly used programs (SK, AHK) entirely but if we're unconvinced of your good intentions we will remove links. Now on that thread, it was posted in context, quite relevant.

So autohotkey is only allowed sometimes?

 

 

In short, if you were a nice user with nothing whatsoever to do with pages of botting scripts, then yes, we may have left the link. As it stands you don't have our trust in this.

I'd love to know what the [bleep] you're talking about here enaid. When have I ever posted any bloody botting scripts?

[Ginger_Warrior]

"Could Pontius Pilate possibly judge the intentions of Jesus?" will probably be the next rant. Got a tenner on it.

 

It's not like when I gave 13 months as a crew member I possibly wanted to 'help' people. I did it for the money, obviously.

[Obtaurian]

"Could Pontius Pilate possibly judge the intentions of Jesus?" will probably be the next rant. Got a tenner on it.

 

It's not like when I gave 13 months as a crew member I possibly wanted to 'help' people. I did it for the money, obviously.

 

Why do you continue to post in this thread if this is such a trivial issue to you?

[Grimy_Bunyip]

In short, it comes down to moderator's discretion and how we percieve the whole of your posts.

 

And this will launch the next rant about how we can't possibly judge your intentions :rolleyes:.

is that really a good way to moderate now?

[Danqazmlp]

"Could Pontius Pilate possibly judge the intentions of Jesus?" will probably be the next rant. Got a tenner on it.

 

It's not like when I gave 13 months as a crew member I possibly wanted to 'help' people. I did it for the money, obviously.

 

Why do you continue to post in this thread if this is such a trivial issue to you?

 

I think it can be good to get the view of somebody who isn't involved in either party. An unbiased viewpoint and all that.

 

I'm not sure of what has recently happened to spark people off yet again, but until we get an official reply from Jagex (yes it is taking a while but there is nothing we can do about it, patience is a virtue), nobody can know for sure what is and isn't legal. What we have to do is weigh up the facts we have available and judge for ourselves what is/isn't. That is pretty much set in stone and won't be changing unless we are shown proof of the legality of the scripts present. If a link is advertised to said forum, it will be removed according to the current rules.

 

To the above, we try to be as consistent as possible with all forum members, but when somebody is incredibly visible due to posting a lot there is obviously much more chance of them being caught for breaking the rules. Just as somebody who often breaks signature rules will have moderators looking at their signature more often. Unless people use the report function, it is logical that the most visible people will be those caught for breaking the rules. There is nothing that can be done about that.

[green9090]

In short, it comes down to moderator's discretion and how we percieve the whole of your posts.

 

And this will launch the next rant about how we can't possibly judge your intentions :rolleyes:.

Whoa. And all this time I thought you were a reasonable person.

 

If you disallow ahk, you disallow ahk. If you don't, you don't. How could it possibly be okay for people to have a discussion about the program in the open in one thread and another user to not be allowed to put a link in his sig? The link was not malicious. Ahk is not a botting script any more than java is a botting script.

 

You guys are making no effort to be fair or impartial at all, and it's starting to piss me off. You guys are not doing yourselves any favors by being visibly biased about moderation. I suggest getting your [cabbage] together and behaving like adults when you decide whether moderator action needs to be taken in the future, because bad moderation is one of the things that will destroy a community faster than anything else. I've seen it happen.

[Andy]

I'm not sure of what has recently happened to spark people off yet again, but until we get an official reply from Jagex (yes it is taking a while but there is nothing we can do about it, patience is a virtue), nobody can know for sure what is and isn't legal. What we have to do is weigh up the facts we have available and judge for ourselves what is/isn't. That is pretty much set in stone and won't be changing unless we are shown proof of the legality of the scripts present. If a link is advertised to said forum, it will be removed according to the current rules.

If it's set in stone why is quyneax okaying the use of ahk? Oh and look - there's an ahk script on that page. Does this mean tif encourages botting?

http://forum.tip.it/topic/294547-mouse-keys/

[curtis95112]

In short, it comes down to moderator's discretion and how we percieve the whole of your posts.

 

And this will launch the next rant about how we can't possibly judge your intentions :rolleyes:.

 

What? So rules are now applied differently to different people? And I was thinking guilty until proven innocent was the big problem here... Silly me. Should have caught the hint way earlier.

There's something seriously wrong with the moderation here.

 

And btw, you never explained why we can't see Darkdude's original inquiry and Jagex's reply. We don't even know if it was an email. Upon asking, I was told "It's simply Jagex's wishes that we do not say", subject here being the method of communication.

 

Forgive me for being assuming so much, but shouldn't the links have been left up until the scripts were declared illegal (Not gonna happen, but hey) and not vice versa?

Were the links to TEF's MAIN PAGE posing such a great threat to TIF's innocent users that would never even dream of botting until they just happened to stumble on a certain thread that had admins telling people to keep the rules?

 

If I may repeat myself, there's something seriously wrong with the moderation here.

[The Observer]

It's not like trolling wasn't a problem at all on these boards...

[Youmu]

In short, it comes down to moderator's discretion and how we percieve the whole of your posts.

 

And this will launch the next rant about how we can't possibly judge your intentions :rolleyes:.

Wait, what? You're saying that moderators now take personal judgments of other users into account here?

 

If that's what you're saying, there is something seriously wrong here, and I mean it. If TEF is blocked because of this very reason...

 

EDIT: Okay I think I misunderstood what you're trying to say, my bad.