The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Randox]

Actually, we probably stand to have some inflation as it stands now since the plummeting prices have vaporized billions of gp out of the game, at least until prices go back up.

 

Can you clarify your point? Money only ever circulates the game regardless of inflation or deflation. The only ways it can leave the game are through things like dropping it or paying various NPC's.

Oh, I was talking about virtual value, much like how in the real world only a small percentage of our money is backed up by cash. Most of it exists only in a computer. If you take say Bandos, of which there are many thousands of sets floating around, and drop the price of each set from say 45m to 20m, then the monetary value of all those bandos items is now less than half of what it used to be. For each thousand sets, 25 billion in gp value was just removed from the economy as a whole. If you look at those items as an investment, this is money people no longer have, since they spent x ammount purchasing the armour, but can only get a less ammount of y back, and in barter trades, the armour commands less value compared to what it used to get you. In effect, money is now gone, though I seem to have thoroughly confused myself on inflation vs deflation. Massive ammounts of money leaving the economy is deflation, since prices are going down.

 

I think that makes more sense now at least...

 

Essentially, people have less money value available to them, even if their assets are still quite liquid, but its okay because everything got cheeper (its nice when the cause corrects the problem).

[SixFootOne]

Just looking at the abilities I'm concerned that they're way too powerful. Of course they should have a reason, and using them should make you cause more damage, but 300-400% more damage or 30-40% of enemys max hitpoints seems way too much. In my opinion they shouldn't take that much out of regular attacks, instead make them just somewhat stronger. I haven't tested beta, but I watched Castle Wars livestreaming it and it seemed like the abilities are only thing causing damage anymore. Another thing I don't like is forcing too strictly into certain way of fighting to be atleast somewhat efficient. Glad I got almost maxed melees with maxed ranged and magic, so should't be that big problem to me. Still think the monster weaknesses shouldn't cause that much of effect on which attack style to use. I was more of thinking the abilities/weaknesses making you maybe 50-100% stronger when using the right ones, not how it seems to be now. I know it's only beta, but I think alot needs changing before making it the real game...

 

I'll write more when I get my hands on beta. :mellow:

 

Don't be fool by the numbers, you don't always hit 300-400%, or hit at all. Abilities to me feel like an extension of special attacks. Most people relied on them before, the only difference I see now is you have more that you can use more of them more often. Normal attacks do plenty of damage, most of the lower abilities are just a bonus. It's usually the ultimates that are doing the big hits.

 

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

there is no balance at all. its an absolute mess and quadruplely so in PvE. The only attacks that do any appreciable damage are ones that damage a % of the targets max LP but anything worth a damn has a cap on how much damage it can take, so you just spam unload and frenzy as they hit the cap multiple times.

 

All the ideas put in seem to be working in opposition to each other, like whats the point of better armour giving better lp boosts if the only real damage is coming from these stupid % based attacks, which causes you to take more damage in absolute terms and so making you need more food to heal? The same is true with weapons, since all the damage is coming from the % attacks and abilities are always the same speed, weapon speed and power are irrelevant so the only weapon stat that matters is hit rating.

 

I hope they werent actually planning to release it this year, as if this gets released even remotely resembling this mess then I really do see myself leaving and never coming back.

 

Oh dear... that doesn't sound good at all.

 

Is there a balance between 1h weapons and 2h weapons? Everyone seems to be dual wielding. Are bows like the zaryte bow any good? The chaotic maul? Staves?

 

I would say there is a bit of an exaggeration on how messy everything is. I am not saying this is anywhere near right, but it's not THAT bad. Most of the time, the people who complain are the ones who just spam and don't put any thought into what abilities they use.

 

Here is my thoughts + experience with duel wielding and 2 hand weapons. Duel wielding has the abilities to rip through someone, and cause a lot of damage fast (typically beating out someone using a 2h weapon but not fairing well with someone tanking with a shield). 2h weapons seems to do well against people using shields.

 

I love the zaryte bow. I usually kill anyone I am fighting unless they are divine tanking (melee, mage, or range). I do this by binding them, then i use an ability that hits higher while they are stunned. I hit a few more abilities and then about the time they start running at me, I hit them with the range ability that does more damage while they are running. Finally I finish with a range ultimate, or if I am low on health I rejuvenate. Now if the person actually knows how to use abilities, they just counter my bind with the freedom ability and kill me. That's kind of what i mean about the people complaining. I killed some guy 3 times in a row while using range (he was melee), because i kept binding him. He then sat there complaining about how this is garbage. If he actually spent anytime putting in thought on what to use, he would have used freedom and ripped me to shreds anyway.

 

 

 

Edit: I would also like to add something for anyone afraid of all the damage they might take. There are defensive abilities to counter the damage as well. Anticipation reduces all damage taken by 10% for 10 seconds. Revenge causes any attacks you received to increase your damage by 10% stacking up to 100% for 10 seconds. Immortality reduces damage you receive by 25% for 30 seconds, and if you die you return to life. Debilitate reduces damage enemies deal by 50% for 10 seconds. Resonance makes attacks within the next 6 seconds heal you instead of harm you. Reflect sends 50% of damage back at an attacker for 10 seconds. Freedom as I mentioned before frees you of snare, gains immunity to them for 6 seconds and clears damage over time effects. Rejuvenate uses up your bar to fill your health and drained stats over time.

[Skull]

I actually am sort of interested in the changes. Will it bring me back to Runescape? Probably not. But it might convince me to log in one or two times, although I have no expectation of F2P getting anything useful or interesting out of this.

 

I'll keep an eye on this thread.

[Platinum_Myr]

Actually, we probably stand to have some inflation as it stands now since the plummeting prices have vaporized billions of gp out of the game, at least until prices go back up.

 

Can you clarify your point? Money only ever circulates the game regardless of inflation or deflation. The only ways it can leave the game are through things like dropping it or paying various NPC's.

Oh, I was talking about virtual value, much like how in the real world only a small percentage of our money is backed up by cash. Most of it exists only in a computer. If you take say Bandos, of which there are many thousands of sets floating around, and drop the price of each set from say 45m to 20m, then the monetary value of all those bandos items is now less than half of what it used to be. For each thousand sets, 25 billion in gp value was just removed from the economy as a whole. If you look at those items as an investment, this is money people no longer have, since they spent x ammount purchasing the armour, but can only get a less ammount of y back, and in barter trades, the armour commands less value compared to what it used to get you. In effect, money is now gone, though I seem to have thoroughly confused myself on inflation vs deflation. Massive ammounts of money leaving the economy is deflation, since prices are going down.

 

I think that makes more sense now at least...

 

Essentially, people have less money value available to them, even if their assets are still quite liquid, but its okay because everything got cheeper (its nice when the cause corrects the problem).

 

You're right. The excess wealth is soaked up by rares and other high-end gears and cash stacks. It doesn't "strictly" leave the game but it leaves circulation due to wealthy players not participating in the economy in the same way. I have a friend with over 1b of wealth who just sits on it, doing nothing. That's effectively 1b that left the economy.

[Quyneax]

I actually am sort of interested in the changes. Will it bring me back to Runescape? Probably not. But it might convince me to log in one or two times, although I have no expectation of F2P getting anything useful or interesting out of this.

 

I'll keep an eye on this thread.

F2P will get massive lp boosts and a bunch of special moves at least. Currently full rune is already over 5000 lp boost.

[Leon S]

Just looking at the abilities I'm concerned that they're way too powerful. Of course they should have a reason, and using them should make you cause more damage, but 300-400% more damage or 30-40% of enemys max hitpoints seems way too much. In my opinion they shouldn't take that much out of regular attacks, instead make them just somewhat stronger. I haven't tested beta, but I watched Castle Wars livestreaming it and it seemed like the abilities are only thing causing damage anymore. Another thing I don't like is forcing too strictly into certain way of fighting to be atleast somewhat efficient. Glad I got almost maxed melees with maxed ranged and magic, so should't be that big problem to me. Still think the monster weaknesses shouldn't cause that much of effect on which attack style to use. I was more of thinking the abilities/weaknesses making you maybe 50-100% stronger when using the right ones, not how it seems to be now. I know it's only beta, but I think alot needs changing before making it the real game...

 

I'll write more when I get my hands on beta. :mellow:

 

Don't be fool by the numbers, you don't always hit 300-400%, or hit at all. Abilities to me feel like an extension of special attacks. Most people relied on them before, the only difference I see now is you have more that you can use more of them more often. Normal attacks do plenty of damage, most of the lower abilities are just a bonus. It's usually the ultimates that are doing the big hits.

 

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

there is no balance at all. its an absolute mess and quadruplely so in PvE. The only attacks that do any appreciable damage are ones that damage a % of the targets max LP but anything worth a damn has a cap on how much damage it can take, so you just spam unload and frenzy as they hit the cap multiple times.

 

All the ideas put in seem to be working in opposition to each other, like whats the point of better armour giving better lp boosts if the only real damage is coming from these stupid % based attacks, which causes you to take more damage in absolute terms and so making you need more food to heal? The same is true with weapons, since all the damage is coming from the % attacks and abilities are always the same speed, weapon speed and power are irrelevant so the only weapon stat that matters is hit rating.

 

I hope they werent actually planning to release it this year, as if this gets released even remotely resembling this mess then I really do see myself leaving and never coming back.

 

Oh dear... that doesn't sound good at all.

 

Is there a balance between 1h weapons and 2h weapons? Everyone seems to be dual wielding. Are bows like the zaryte bow any good? The chaotic maul? Staves?

 

I would say there is a bit of an exaggeration on how messy everything is. I am not saying this is anywhere near right, but it's not THAT bad. Most of the time, the people who complain are the ones who just spam and don't put any thought into what abilities they use.

 

Here is my thoughts + experience with duel wielding and 2 hand weapons. Duel wielding has the abilities to rip through someone, and cause a lot of damage fast (typically beating out someone using a 2h weapon but not fairing well with someone tanking with a shield). 2h weapons seems to do well against people using shields.

 

I love the zaryte bow. I usually kill anyone I am fighting unless they are divine tanking (melee, mage, or range). I do this by binding them, then i use an ability that hits higher while they are stunned. I hit a few more abilities and then about the time they start running at me, I hit them with the range ability that does more damage while they are running. Finally I finish with a range ultimate, or if I am low on health I rejuvenate. Now if the person actually knows how to use abilities, they just counter my bind with the freedom ability and kill me. That's kind of what i mean about the people complaining. I killed some guy 3 times in a row while using range (he was melee), because i kept binding him. He then sat there complaining about how this is garbage. If he actually spent anytime putting in thought on what to use, he would have used freedom and ripped me to shreds anyway.

 

 

 

Edit: I would also like to add something for anyone afraid of all the damage they might take. There are defensive abilities to counter the damage as well. Anticipation reduces all damage taken by 10% for 10 seconds. Revenge causes any attacks you received to increase your damage by 10% stacking up to 100% for 10 seconds. Immortality reduces damage you receive by 25% for 30 seconds, and if you die you return to life. Debilitate reduces damage enemies deal by 50% for 10 seconds. Resonance makes attacks within the next 6 seconds heal you instead of harm you. Reflect sends 50% of damage back at an attacker for 10 seconds. Freedom as I mentioned before frees you of snare, gains immunity to them for 6 seconds and clears damage over time effects. Rejuvenate uses up your bar to fill your health and drained stats over time.

 

Thanks for the answers! Really appreciate it :)

[Hedgehog]

Has anyone tried out TDs in Beta? How much different are they?

You need all 3 styles to beat them. When they pray range, they're weak to stab, when they pray melee they're weak to fire spells, and idk what they are when they're praying mage cuz I never brought fire surge. It takes forever to kill them if you don't use the right style. You can still tank their melee attack and they'll never switch, though.

 

I doubt they'll be worth killing though, since claws will be entirely worthless.

[Cheefoo]

Has anyone tried out TDs in Beta? How much different are they?

You need all 3 styles to beat them. When they pray range, they're weak to stab, when they pray melee they're weak to fire spells, and idk what they are when they're praying mage cuz I never brought fire surge. It takes forever to kill them if you don't use the right style. You can still tank their melee attack and they'll never switch, though.

 

I doubt they'll be worth killing though, since claws will be entirely worthless.

 

Claws seems to have a +% to critical hits. Not sure what that really means, and in their current state they are pretty useless. I hope they're buffed later down the line.

[Platinum_Myr]

There are too many numbers which don't make any sense at the moment. Not enough clarity in the equipment screens.

[Quyneax]

I think it'd be a great idea to switch monsters from having one weakness to having one strength. E.g. don't ever try using slash on waterfiends, don't ever try crush on chromatic dragons, don't ever use ice magic on isw, don't ever stab a...?

[Dusk Souls]

Rock Elemetal? Living Rock Creature?

 

Why are claws so bad in the beta? Do their stats suck that much compared to dual wielding other weapons?

[Miss Lioness]

I think it'd be a great idea to switch monsters from having one weakness to having one strength. E.g. don't ever try using slash on waterfiends, don't ever try crush on chromatic dragons, don't ever use ice magic on isw, don't ever stab a...?

 

That is already the case in the Live-game. However unlike that in the Live-game every combat option is viable of doing unlike the current Beta. You need the specific style to be able to be effective.

 

One obvious example is Barrows. It still can be done with 1 type, it will be much more annoying though.

 

 

I've tried Fight Caves and they said they would reduce the costs of Magic. It costed me 2.5m just to get to Jad. That's just the rune costs. If you used pots this would be roughly another 500k higher.

I still need to try Battle Robes, but I doubt they would be as effective as Gano.

Also Gano repairs are like 2.5x more then at the current live game where I can get to jad with pps in roughly 1h 15 mins w/o extremes/ovl/turm. I consider that the average time I should be able to get in Beta.

It took me 3.5h in Beta using Ice Blitz as pps malfunctions in Beta. Also Prayers malfunction too and Jad hit through it else I would be able to make it hands down.

 

Still Fight Caves in Beta are a lot easier with the Rejuvenation (or something) Ability. It heals me roughly 2k-3k LP. The max damage I got 1 round was 4k but the round after that barely anything. So that is quite balanced.

[Vezon Dash]

It isn't a malfunction. Things can hit through prayer now.

[Platinum_Myr]

They shouldn't hit that much through prayer. Also, they should make weaknesses into tiers. So, if its weak to bolts, it should be semi-weak to ranged...

[Cheefoo]

Magic is cheaper if you're using a staff, but if you're dual wielding, you cast spells so incredibly fast you burn through runes like water (runes).

[demby123]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

there is no balance at all. its an absolute mess and quadruplely so in PvE. The only attacks that do any appreciable damage are ones that damage a % of the targets max LP but anything worth a damn has a cap on how much damage it can take, so you just spam unload and frenzy as they hit the cap multiple times.

 

All the ideas put in seem to be working in opposition to each other, like whats the point of better armour giving better lp boosts if the only real damage is coming from these stupid % based attacks, which causes you to take more damage in absolute terms and so making you need more food to heal? The same is true with weapons, since all the damage is coming from the % attacks and abilities are always the same speed, weapon speed and power are irrelevant so the only weapon stat that matters is hit rating.

 

I hope they werent actually planning to release it this year, as if this gets released even remotely resembling this mess then I really do see myself leaving and never coming back.

In the words of chucky, You'll be back, they always come back.

 

But dying is such a -------

[Den]

My fight caves video is up. I expect people to do it much faster. Video is 55 minutes long, but you can skip a lot by using the annotations. |^_^|

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Qs2C6fAeI

[Estoc]

That stun sound every time you cast ice barrage is horrible, hope that gets changed. Either way hope you put up more vids, only way I can experience the beta until the 6th sadly.

[Den]

Have been posting videos every day since the release. Tried Glacors, which notably are twice as high combat as Jad. Combat levels are really screwed currently.

Just finished uploading my pking in torva video. Mic quality drops a little in this video for some reason.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSZTbB1RUWM

[spooferfish]

I like nothing about this. The bar thing for attacks is in the way, I can't see anything. The whole thing is confusing. I haven't tried it very much because every time I do it pisses me off and I log out and go back to D3. A majority of the people 'testing' the beta are just abusing a bug to get rares. Way to go there guys.

 

The thing that I hate the most about it so far though? If I put my armor on with full health, I should have full health when I have all my armor put on. I don't want to waste all my food by putting on armor. That is absolutely idiotic.

[Estoc]

A majority of the people 'testing' the beta are just abusing a bug to get rares.

 

Nice to know I was denied a spot so that people could use the beta to play out their bug abusing fantasies.

 

If I put my armor on with full health, I should have full health when I have all my armor put on. I don't want to waste all my food by putting on armor. That is absolutely idiotic.

 

The alternative is a cantankerous healing out of combat system asking to be abused. Besides, isn't there a constitution ability to heal with?

[Salad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq0ixAz3r4Y

 

Nex solo in beta.

[IridiumBunny]

If I put my armor on with full health, I should have full health when I have all my armor put on. I don't want to waste all my food by putting on armor. That is absolutely idiotic.

 

The alternative is a cantankerous healing out of combat system asking to be abused. Besides, isn't there a constitution ability to heal with?

 

Most people are suggesting (and I agree) that if you are out of combat for twenty seconds or so, they should maintain the % of life points you have. So if I am 25/50, putting on armour gives me 2500/5000, taking off puts me back at 25/50. This seems reasonable enough to me - how would someone abuse it?

[SixFootOne]

I like nothing about this. The bar thing for attacks is in the way, I can't see anything. The whole thing is confusing. I haven't tried it very much because every time I do it pisses me off and I log out and go back to D3. A majority of the people 'testing' the beta are just abusing a bug to get rares. Way to go there guys.

 

The thing that I hate the most about it so far though? If I put my armor on with full health, I should have full health when I have all my armor put on. I don't want to waste all my food by putting on armor. That is absolutely idiotic.

 

I suggest you give it another chance. Read each of the abilities, it won't take long to figure out you can use some in combination and most have a way to counter.

 

Start off with basics, they recover quickly and can build up your adrenalin bar. Once you get half a bar use thresholds, they do quite a bit of damage. Continue building up your bar and finish with an ultimate. An example of what to do for range in a duel arena scenario. Start off the duel with a Binding shot. It binds your target for 20 seconds and stuns them for 3. Follow that up with a piercing show, which does 175% damage because they are stunned. Use escape, which will leap you backwards 7 meters and continue to build up your bar. Since the player is bound is still bound, you just put distance between you and your opponent and you are free to shoot them. After about 20 seconds they should be running towards you. Use fragmentation shot, this does more than 200% damage because they are running at you. Continue the fight, if you are low on health use rejuvenate to gain around 3k life points, if you are ok on health finish them off with another ultimate.

 

The situation with people not testing combat is being addressed with the next update. Check one of my previous posts in this thread for the quick find code and quote if you want to read it. The whole with not getting full health is so you can't use your armor to just heal you. And i am sure there are smarter ways of address the health/armor issue. Beta came out a few days ago, we have months to go so don't stress :thumbsup:

[Estoc]

If I put my armor on with full health, I should have full health when I have all my armor put on. I don't want to waste all my food by putting on armor. That is absolutely idiotic.

 

The alternative is a cantankerous healing out of combat system asking to be abused. Besides, isn't there a constitution ability to heal with?

 

Most people are suggesting (and I agree) that if you are out of combat for twenty seconds or so, they should maintain the % of life points you have. So if I am 25/50, putting on armour gives me 2500/5000, taking off puts me back at 25/50. This seems reasonable enough to me - how would someone abuse it?

 

The only way I could see would be to get out of combat for the specified time (between boss kills, around a corner in fight caves or generally running from your enemy) then take off armor, eat a rocktail which boosts you to 990 lifepoints (100%) and put on armor giving you in your case, rocktails that heal 5000 lifepoints. Extending the timer would make it only useful at banks where it's not really a big deal.

 

Not that I think it's a bad idea per se, I just don't think it's worth the hassle, just eat those 5 rocktails before you go bossing.