The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Flyingjj]

Need to be logged in and have beta access to view. Essentially said the three good spirit shields are range, mage, and melee versions of divine(reduce damage by 30%, take it out of prayer), and the fourth has no effect and is just a high level mage shield.

[Vann]

[hide= Barrows Discussion]

So I just did a quick trip of Barrows as I haven't seen anyone talk about it yet. Unsurprisingly, every single Brother has a different weakness.

 

 

Dharok is weak to Fire

Verac is weak to Earth

Torag is weak to Water

Guthan is weak to Air

Karil is weak to Stab

Ahrim is weak to Arrows

Akrisae is weak to Bolts

 

 

A couple of things to note:

-Just like a lot of people have said about various enemies, ALL of the Brothers can hit through prayer which makes Verac's special pointless among other things.

-I only took Virtus with Fire wave and Torva with dual rapiers. Killing Dharok first with his weakness, praying deflect melee and anguish, I came out with less than 3k LP from like 9k.

-Managed to kill all the brothers weak to the other elements with just fire but I did noticeably less damage.

-Barrows wasn't difficult, but it certainly made me use a lot more supplies than usual.

 

I really hope Jagex isn't expecting us to carry SEVEN different attack styles to Barrows. It's just ridiculous as to how every single monster only has one weakness. If Ahrim and Akrisae are weak to arrows and bolts, they should also be weak to stab. As much as I like the new system it just feels like Jagex have taken one step forward and two steps back. But, this is a Beta after all so I'm not too concerned at the moment.

I'm sure certain bosses and places will get tweaked. Do weaknesses really make a big deal?

 

It does. For example the 90's in fight cave:

I'm maging the fight caves with Ice blitz... 95% of the time I miss @ the 90's.... Even the ability's miss.

[/hide]

I did a barrows run as well. Torva, steads, neitz, barrows gloves, whip and Ee offhand. Prayed melee deflect on Dh and soulsplit the rest. Was fairly quick (can't do 7th brother) and I only used 1 dose ovl, 1 dose prayer renewal, and 3 dose super prayer. so obvs you can power melee them just like old system.

 

Peace,

Vann

[Saradomin_Mage]

For the people saying 'it might be possible to duo Nex... maybe?' here's a 4 minute 12 second Nex Duo from Smokey and Dardan ;)

 

 

I like how they managed to get their Adrenaline to 100% out of combat before the kill by using a combo of Anticipation/Preparation/Resonance.

 

Also I don't know if Steel Titans working at Nex is deliberate or not, but there was a JMod watching them and he didn't say that was a glitch so that could be very useful in future!

Steel Titans easily churn out damage with ranged, I've seen hits of over 1000. Combine that with Steel of Legends and they're an insane DPS factor - probably also why they didn't get any XP for the kill (familiars are a bit bugged from personal testing). They're definitely nowhere near that accurate on Nex in the live game. Hell, I'm pretty sure we aren't that accurate either :P

Also lol @ 100% adr out of combat - gotta remember that.

 

broken thread/not working for me for some reason.

What do the threads say?

[hide]

Hey,

 

Thanks for your post and feedback - I'll try and reply to the things you've raised:

 

XP reduction of Combat XP and Slayer Xp.

Firstly, I'll just mention that NO values are final in the beta at this stage. As far as we are concerned the system works, so now we can tweak the rates (globally) up and down. It sounds like first we need to think about addressing the NPC's (Lifepoints/defence chances) so they die in the expected times and then look at the XP.

 

Secondly, in the first batch of changes rolling out to the Beta servers with the next update you'll see full combat XP vs Slayer monsters if on task, meaning you never suffer combat XP loss if training Slayer.

 

Prayer bonus

This is something that will be maintained on armour but rolled out over the course of the beta

 

Monster difficulty

Again, Beta related as I touched on in my first bit above, we'll now be looking at the monster attack/defend chances and tweaking as necessary to pull them into an acceptable time.

 

Prayer/Herblore changes

This couples with a few points above and will be checked as we go through the beta.

 

Rebalance Slayer XPrates

As above, this is fully within our control and tied to combat XP. When one is working and giving rates people are happy with we can pull Slayer inline accordingly.

 

Effigys

I'm not involved with effigy's so I can't really comment on drop rates in or out of Slayer.

 

Again, nothing is final so expect plenty of rates/things to change.

-Chris

[/hide]

[hide]

I noticed it was explained nowhere so I tested it myself.

 

- Divine, Elysian and Arcane all reduce all incoming damage by 30% and subtract half of this reduced damage from Prayer (15% of original hit). They all work like the divine in real runescape does.

 

- Divine is the shield for melee users, Elysian for rangers and Arcane for mages. Aside from the combat triangle, they are all equal.

 

- Their soaking effects do not work if you are wearing any items aside from the shields. This is a known bug.

 

- Because damage is much higher now, the shields can clear your prayer extremely quickly, but I expect that this will be balanced later.

 

- Spectral is a magic shield and it does not have any effects.

 

Thx to Zoonyx/Blutters for helping me.

[/hide]

[Platinum_Myr]

It seems they are aware of a lot of things. It seems unprofessional to have so many things missing from beta (not wrong: missing).

* Stat boosts on items

* Prayer boost on items

* Shields not working properly

* Cluttered tabs

 

I can get some of this due to time crunch or oversight but...

 

Also, I would like a nice thread on the forums by a mod that is like a patchnotes for the beta. Keeping us informed in a single place of all the changes.

[Sylpheed]

It seems they are aware of a lot of things. It seems unprofessional to have so many things missing from beta (not wrong: missing).

* Stat boosts on items

* Prayer boost on items

* Shields not working properly

* Cluttered tabs

 

I can get some of this due to time crunch or oversight but...

 

Also, I would like a nice thread on the forums by a mod that is like a patchnotes for the beta. Keeping us informed in a single place of all the changes.

 

A Beta is an almost but not entirely finished version of something. I've played Beta's in the past that have had giant chunks of content missing. The Beta is going to be running for a while so its to be expected that some things take priority over others.

[Ambler]

Oh. There goes my chances of buying an arcane in the real rs...

[XxTearGodxX]

Trying out a barrows strategy..I really hope I can get a good one down pact and set to go. I love doing barrows I've done it for years in between weekly updates..

 

Hell on the live game I used to be able to bum rush through a trip with just my base prayer (96), inventory of monkfish, & polypore staff for all brothers except for

Ahrim which I'd melee.

 

In the beta I've tried bringing my normal gear (dragon armor) and tried maging their weaknesses at them but I did not hit much at all like that so I used my bandos

godsword on them and I've been cleaning house so far. Except for when I reach Akrisae he's the only brother who tears through my prayer a LOT with his magic. But

then again that could be because my melee armor is very weak to magic.

 

Just tried using royal dragonhide armor (top & legs) against all brothers including Akrisae and still isn't so bad, it seemed like I took a bit less damage.

I think I just need to learn the new system a bit more and learn when to use which ability.

[Platinum_Myr]

It seems they are aware of a lot of things. It seems unprofessional to have so many things missing from beta (not wrong: missing).

* Stat boosts on items

* Prayer boost on items

* Shields not working properly

* Cluttered tabs

 

I can get some of this due to time crunch or oversight but...

 

Also, I would like a nice thread on the forums by a mod that is like a patchnotes for the beta. Keeping us informed in a single place of all the changes.

 

A Beta is an almost but not entirely finished version of something. I've played Beta's in the past that have had giant chunks of content missing. The Beta is going to be running for a while so its to be expected that some things take priority over others.

 

Mostly I wish they were more forthcoming with a list of things they already know are missing/wrong. They hyped it a lot to the point where I felt like it should've been more complete (though obviously with wrong numbers)

[Sylpheed]

[hide= Barrows Discussion]

So I just did a quick trip of Barrows as I haven't seen anyone talk about it yet. Unsurprisingly, every single Brother has a different weakness.

 

 

Dharok is weak to Fire

Verac is weak to Earth

Torag is weak to Water

Guthan is weak to Air

Karil is weak to Stab

Ahrim is weak to Arrows

Akrisae is weak to Bolts

 

 

A couple of things to note:

-Just like a lot of people have said about various enemies, ALL of the Brothers can hit through prayer which makes Verac's special pointless among other things.

-I only took Virtus with Fire wave and Torva with dual rapiers. Killing Dharok first with his weakness, praying deflect melee and anguish, I came out with less than 3k LP from like 9k.

-Managed to kill all the brothers weak to the other elements with just fire but I did noticeably less damage.

-Barrows wasn't difficult, but it certainly made me use a lot more supplies than usual.

 

I really hope Jagex isn't expecting us to carry SEVEN different attack styles to Barrows. It's just ridiculous as to how every single monster only has one weakness. If Ahrim and Akrisae are weak to arrows and bolts, they should also be weak to stab. As much as I like the new system it just feels like Jagex have taken one step forward and two steps back. But, this is a Beta after all so I'm not too concerned at the moment.

I'm sure certain bosses and places will get tweaked. Do weaknesses really make a big deal?

 

It does. For example the 90's in fight cave:

I'm maging the fight caves with Ice blitz... 95% of the time I miss @ the 90's.... Even the ability's miss.

[/hide]

I did a barrows run as well. Torva, steads, neitz, barrows gloves, whip and Ee offhand. Prayed melee deflect on Dh and soulsplit the rest. Was fairly quick (can't do 7th brother) and I only used 1 dose ovl, 1 dose prayer renewal, and 3 dose super prayer. so obvs you can power melee them just like old system.

 

Peace,

Vann

 

Nobody said you couldn't. The point is, it takes longer and uses more supplies. In the normal game it's easily possible to kill all the surface brothers with full prayer without even using a single dose of prayer potion.

[aerendil]

I tried beta at 2:30 in the morning the other night.... it was horrible. very vague, undefined, no idea what to do with abilities, no idea how to get adrenahline bar to full in a fight, despite the fact i fought for over 10 mins in 1 shitty fight... normal weapons do (bleep) all, which is stupid... Also, combat is a real mess, impossible to see what is going on, or so i thought.....

 

so not looking forward to this update.

[jayc3399]

Assuming that its similar to wow in which you can either have a rotation or a priority system for abilities. general combat should end up with a set that most/all people use. There is more thinking when it comes to pvp but it seems like defensive abilities lose a distinctive offensive advantage. but that could be balanced out with a mix of defense/ offense depending on the value of a gcd (global cool down)

[Quyneax]

I'm glad you can get 100% adrenaline out of combat, that way you can still do a sort of charge/rush attack. I don't think any ultimate is powerful enough to kill someone from full lp anyway, so that's not unbalanced even.

[jayc3399]

I'm glad you can get 100% adrenaline out of combat, that way you can still do a sort of charge/rush attack. I don't think any ultimate is powerful enough to kill someone from full lp anyway, so that's not unbalanced even.

 

Frenzy has that sort of ko potential if your opponent is willing to stand in it.

[Quyneax]

I'm glad you can get 100% adrenaline out of combat, that way you can still do a sort of charge/rush attack. I don't think any ultimate is powerful enough to kill someone from full lp anyway, so that's not unbalanced even.

Frenzy has that sort of ko potential if your opponent is willing to stand in it.

Good :D. Might get slightly stale by now, but I still think rushing is a natural part of combat.

[SixFootOne]

Urgh anyone caught gambling in beta should have their access revoked.

Agreed, I actually wanted beta access to like..beta test the new combat update, not gamble cash that won't be there by September :/ some players are true morons..

 

Well it looks like jagex will address it.

"Hey,

 

Yeah we're aware of this. There are already plans to combat this currently sitting with us. I just had a chat to the devs and we'll be pushing something out shortly.

 

Any further feedback you have, please do add ;)

 

Ta!

 

-Reach "

 

 

"The idea behind the BETA was to have a go at the combat, try out all the new content and offer feedback where you thought things could be improved, changed, added and removed.

 

Not to sit around, ignore combat and accumulate as many phats, santas & max cash stacks as you can.

 

Again, any further feedback, please do add.

 

-Reach "

 

"FYI - This will be resolved within the next update. "

 

[qfc]299-300-958-63833577[/qfc]

[Leon S]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

[SixFootOne]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

I would say no, but it's better than before. And from looking at the beta forums, they are actively looking at everything we have to say and are addressing it. This is early beta and we have months for things to be adjusted.

[Leon S]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

I would say no, but it's better than before. And from looking at the beta forums, they are actively looking at everything we have to say and are addressing it. This is early beta and we have months for things to be adjusted.

 

What class is the weakest right now?

 

And is Magic effective on Nex now?

[Saradomin_Mage]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

I would say no, but it's better than before. And from looking at the beta forums, they are actively looking at everything we have to say and are addressing it. This is early beta and we have months for things to be adjusted.

 

What class is the weakest right now?

 

And is Magic effective on Nex now?

Given that Nex has no weakness, I suppose it could work effectively.

[Syd]

Just looking at the abilities I'm concerned that they're way too powerful. Of course they should have a reason, and using them should make you cause more damage, but 300-400% more damage or 30-40% of enemys max hitpoints seems way too much. In my opinion they shouldn't take that much out of regular attacks, instead make them just somewhat stronger. I haven't tested beta, but I watched Castle Wars livestreaming it and it seemed like the abilities are only thing causing damage anymore. Another thing I don't like is forcing too strictly into certain way of fighting to be atleast somewhat efficient. Glad I got almost maxed melees with maxed ranged and magic, so should't be that big problem to me. Still think the monster weaknesses shouldn't cause that much of effect on which attack style to use. I was more of thinking the abilities/weaknesses making you maybe 50-100% stronger when using the right ones, not how it seems to be now. I know it's only beta, but I think alot needs changing before making it the real game...

 

I'll write more when I get my hands on beta. :mellow:

[Leon S]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

I would say no, but it's better than before. And from looking at the beta forums, they are actively looking at everything we have to say and are addressing it. This is early beta and we have months for things to be adjusted.

 

What class is the weakest right now?

 

And is Magic effective on Nex now?

Given that Nex has no weakness, I suppose it could work effectively.

 

That's pretty cool then if true :P

 

So is there an actual rotation of some kind? Or is it just random button spamming?

[Platinum_Myr]

The abilities all have cooldowns plus a global cooldown after each ability is used. It feels like button mashing, but I think I just needed to get used to the proper abilities. In dungeons I found the best strategy seems to be using rejuvinate to eat up otherwise wasted potential, due to long stints of zero monsters.

 

It tended to feel spam-like because the abilities lag a little after the initial button press. Also, I feel like if I miss any moment where I could be activating an ability that I am losing out on damage so I tend to want to spam-mash the abilities.

[Locke_Superbus]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

there is no balance at all. its an absolute mess and quadruplely so in PvE. The only attacks that do any appreciable damage are ones that damage a % of the targets max LP but anything worth a damn has a cap on how much damage it can take, so you just spam unload and frenzy as they hit the cap multiple times.

 

All the ideas put in seem to be working in opposition to each other, like whats the point of better armour giving better lp boosts if the only real damage is coming from these stupid % based attacks, which causes you to take more damage in absolute terms and so making you need more food to heal? The same is true with weapons, since all the damage is coming from the % attacks and abilities are always the same speed, weapon speed and power are irrelevant so the only weapon stat that matters is hit rating.

 

I hope they werent actually planning to release it this year, as if this gets released even remotely resembling this mess then I really do see myself leaving and never coming back.

[Dragonlordjl]

Has anyone tried out TDs in Beta? How much different are they?

[Leon S]

Considering I can't test the beta (stupid Jagex), I have to ask this: is DPS really balanced now between the three combat classes?

 

there is no balance at all. its an absolute mess and quadruplely so in PvE. The only attacks that do any appreciable damage are ones that damage a % of the targets max LP but anything worth a damn has a cap on how much damage it can take, so you just spam unload and frenzy as they hit the cap multiple times.

 

All the ideas put in seem to be working in opposition to each other, like whats the point of better armour giving better lp boosts if the only real damage is coming from these stupid % based attacks, which causes you to take more damage in absolute terms and so making you need more food to heal? The same is true with weapons, since all the damage is coming from the % attacks and abilities are always the same speed, weapon speed and power are irrelevant so the only weapon stat that matters is hit rating.

 

I hope they werent actually planning to release it this year, as if this gets released even remotely resembling this mess then I really do see myself leaving and never coming back.

 

Oh dear... that doesn't sound good at all.

 

Is there a balance between 1h weapons and 2h weapons? Everyone seems to be dual wielding. Are bows like the zaryte bow any good? The chaotic maul? Staves?