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11-Dec-2012 - Player-Owned Ports


chenw

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Well, I'm an old-school player, and though I'm extremely close to being maxed (3 level away), this whole "levels are so easy to get" nonsense doesn't work on me. I got most of my levels, particularly the expensive and difficult ones, at a time when they were darn hard to get.

I double your oldschool and raise you mine. I've likely worked atleast 4x as hard for everything than you'd have to today. Long story short, noone cares.

 

You've obviously missed the point. The point was not to turn this into a dick-measuring contest. Rather I was saying that a great deal of us high levels are old-school and not part of the current trend where you get easy (or in the case of SOF) or free experience. Thus, to a significant portion of players, especially a portion of players that intersects (in the sense that higher-leveled players are more likely to be long-time players) with high level players(which is what PoP is aimed for), the argument "Yeah, well level 90 is super easy to get anyways, so who cares if your PoP sucks, it's too good as it is", simply does not work.

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Well, I'm an old-school player, and though I'm extremely close to being maxed (3 level away), this whole "levels are so easy to get" nonsense doesn't work on me. I got most of my levels, particularly the expensive and difficult ones, at a time when they were darn hard to get.

I double your oldschool and raise you mine. I've likely worked atleast 4x as hard for everything than you'd have to today. Long story short, noone cares.

 

You've obviously missed the point. The point was not to turn this into a dick-measuring contest. Rather I was saying that a great deal of us high levels are old-school and not part of the current trend where you get easy (or in the case of SOF) or free experience. Thus, to a significant portion of players, especially a portion of players that intersects (in the sense that higher-leveled players are more likely to be long-time players) with high level players(which is what PoP is aimed for), the argument "Yeah, well level 90 is super easy to get anyways, so who cares if your PoP sucks, it's too good as it is", simply does not work.

And you missed my point- noone cares how hard it took you to do something. You doesn't matter. What is doable now is the only thing that really matters. W can't sit here and say that because rc used to be one of the hardest skills in rs that pop armor should be better because of it now. With how easy skills are to train nowadays, level 90 in a few of these skills isn't something that is going to break your back, and particularly for a new player just starting out, pop armor will be a very nice candy once he achieves a few of these skills. Overall, pop and nex gear are both very good armors at two very different ends of the spectrum, with each having its own distinct advantages. Once jagex nerfs void i think people might realize pop will be the more efficient armor to use for high level bossing.

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I don't meet new players in the game, so whats the point of talking about whats best for new players.

Honesty, how many people have started this game in the last year?

I think most of the new accounts are just second chances from the banned or do-overs for bored completionists.

I think you are overstating the value of +76 damage from nex gear.

The most valueable stat in runescape gear today is accuracy and that's solely assigned to weapons.

The next most valuable is hp and then armour and then finally damage.

It't not that damage isn't important it's just that much of the gear out there has about the same values from level 70-90.

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You guys are assuming way to much about new players.

 

Are new players going straight for a 90 skill to do PoP? Do not forget how hard it was to get your first 99, no matter how 'easy' it was back in day.

 

It took me well over a year to get 99 Firemaking simply because I set my mind to only do fm when I was online! It actually demotivated me of playing !!! And this was somewhere in '06!

 

I do not believe for a second that a new player will reach PoP armour before he got the required def level. Usually one trained their skills ( non-combat ) once they reached the 70's! I know I did and I notice that of a lot of people doing something similar. Heck a lot of clanmembers in my clan even has numerous of sub 70 skills while they are maxed combat!

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The most valueable stat in runescape gear today is accuracy and that's solely assigned to weapons.

The next most valuable is hp and then armour and then finally damage.

That's incorrect. Accuracy is most valuable, up to a point at which point it becomes completely useless (see cmaul>drygore most places), there's no bosses in runescape powerful enough to require the higher hp or defense of PoP armor over nex, making those both completely useless. This leaves damage, ~5% DPS is not an insignificant boost, considering that this also leads to higher healing from vampyrism and SS and faster boss kills means less damage taken.

 

 

And you missed my point- noone cares how hard it took you to do something. You doesn't matter. What is doable now is the only thing that really matters. W can't sit here and say that because rc used to be one of the hardest skills in rs that pop armor should be better because of it now. With how easy skills are to train nowadays, level 90 in a few of these skills isn't something that is going to break your back, and particularly for a new player just starting out, pop armor will be a very nice candy once he achieves a few of these skills. Overall, pop and nex gear are both very good armors at two very different ends of the spectrum, with each having its own distinct advantages. Once jagex nerfs void i think people might realize pop will be the more efficient armor to use for high level bossing.

I'm not sure how nerfing void, an offensive armor, would make PoP, a defensive armor, better. If anything it'd just make nex more useful. You're also vastly overestimating the effort taken to get PoP armor with "level 90 in a few of these skills." I don't have 90 RC and Im at ~900,000 distance and I've only seen 6 chi ever. That would be a lot of voyages to get full seasinger. The vast majority of trade goods come from the end story missions and without the ability to take advantage of all of these, you're going to be looking at a huge period of time to get all the armor.

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I don't think saying 'PoP armour is meant for people who can't afford Nex equipment' is right. PoP armour is supposed to be tier 85 equipment, for everyone. If you think the requirement isn't steep enough (for the armour to be t85), that's fine, but point still is that for tier 85 armour, PoP armour has ridiculously few uses and is at the moment less useful than lower-tier equipment.

 

tl;dr If you want to rebalance, make ports harder, not pop armour suckier.

 

(also in my earlier skills comparison I forgot that you also need 90 crafting and smithing to actually make lotus/tetsu - 8 ports skills, of which 3 mandatory to craft and 2 more practically mandatory to obtain trade goods).

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Rebalance would be for Jagex to stop doing everything in their power to keep Nex armor good/rare/expensive/etc, and just let market economics and regular updates reduce its value. Seriously.. how many small updates, tiny changes and other crap have they done during EoC beta and since EoC launch to continue to make Nex armor "the best". It's really annoying.

 

IMO: Ports is plenty time consuming and difficult already, and really shouldn't give armor that is nearly useless in comparison. (Super fast degredation, high time-investment, and lack of damaging boost) You may want to look and see how the 76 dmg boost is minor, but realize how much effort would have been put in for a minor benefit before...

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And that minor is around a 4% DPS increase.

 

Basically any DPS increase also means the following:

Less damage taking, less prayer points used, less food eaten due to less damage taken, faster kills, that means fast loots and an increase in gp/h!

 

There's probably way more things that can be affected just by a tiny boost as this.

 

BTW why did noone comment on my earlier point that I still think that it holds value =d...

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Players bleat on about the lack of high-level content in RuneScape, Jagex eventually release a 90+ skill req D&D, and now 90 is "ridiculously easy" and "pathetic".

 

I don't dispute you wanting to remove skilling time to 90 as a factor in PoP armour, but at some point you have to stop moving the goalposts about what constitutes "high level content".

Stop making skills easier, then.

:-|... This old chestnut...? Really? People have been using that line since the dawn of RuneScape. Given fishing is still trained fastest using methods that were commonplace about five or six years ago... the action bar notwithstanding.

 

Quite apart from that, and I can only assume you've directed that point towards Runespan; what do you want Jagex to do? You want them to continue developing the game in fun and captivating ways, with training methods being part of that development, but you essentially want to make it all pointless and redundant from the get-go because their XP rates don't match up to ZMI or, even better, law running. Why don't they match up? Because you don't like it otherwise.

 

I just don't understand this elitist complex at all. Surely, if you genuinely gave a toss about new players, you'd be saying "This is a great update, one of the best updates in RuneScape history, definitely the best update in 2012... I hope they enjoy it as much as I have, and how they got to access it in the first place, I really couldn't care less about".

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I just don't understand this superiority complex at all. Surely, if you genuinely gave a toss about new players, you'd be saying "This is a great update, one of the best updates in RuneScape history, definitely the best update in 2012... I hope they enjoy it as much as I have".

See, now you're assuming that there are people with a total level over 2100 that aren't completely out of touch with the game... :razz:

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To be fair, both mine and your total levels are over 2100; I'm on my second account and I still don't see his point.

 

I'm sorry if I sound emotional or exacerbated, and I apologise if that's taking away from the logic of this debate but I just... I think it's a crass attitude to have towards "inferior players", I really do. "It's easier now than it was for me and it's not fair." So [bleep]ing what, what does it matter to you?

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To be fair, both mine and your total levels are over 2100

That's the joke. :grin:

 

I am serious about most of the 'elite' players having no idea what they're talking about, though. The "us and them" attitude is there, and it's especially evident when any of us talk about what's best for the game or other players - usually we assume that the rest of the game is exactly as we are and those of us that aren't are not worth consideration.

 

The fact that we seem to think that getting several stats to the low-mid 90s is 'easy' or that a couple hundred hours is 'fast' is enough evidence.

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I think these are relevant questions for the long term substainability of Ports: For those in the pincers already and now concentrating on trade goods, how many days (assuming 8 voyages a day) on average is it taking to gather up 20 plate, chi or lacquer? In the time it takes to gather up 160 plates for a tradeable Tetsu set, how many bones, spices, chi and lacquer do you think you'll also have gathered? At what average daily profit will you think it's worth continuing with this?

 

Right now, for easy profit, there's 300k for broad arrows, 100k for battlestaff, 50k for seaweed, 150k for MTK, 60k for spirit shards and 300k for jewelry. These aren't guarenteed levels (arrowheads and jewelry are volatile), but 800k gp for minimal effort a day. Then there's the 250k for yak hide that takes 10 to 15 minutes pushing the total over 1 mill a day. Not saying Ports should exceed this, but I don't think players are going to stick with ports past the non-tradeable stuff if simpler methods exceed daily average profits of ports.

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I think these are relevant questions for the long term substainability of Ports: For those in the pincers already and now concentrating on trade goods, how many days (assuming 8 voyages a day) on average is it taking to gather up 20 plate, chi or lacquer? In the time it takes to gather up 160 plates for a tradeable Tetsu set, how many bones, spices, chi and lacquer do you think you'll also have gathered? At what average daily profit will you think it's worth continuing with this?

 

Right now, for easy profit, there's 300k for broad arrows, 100k for battlestaff, 50k for seaweed, 150k for MTK, 60k for spirit shards and 300k for jewelry. These aren't guarenteed levels (arrowheads and jewelry are volatile), but 800k gp for minimal effort a day. Then there's the 250k for yak hide that takes 10 to 15 minutes pushing the total over 1 mill a day. Not saying Ports should exceed this, but I don't think players are going to stick with ports past the non-tradeable stuff if simpler methods exceed daily average profits of ports.

I liked the idea of xp for long term sustainability. 20-30k rc/fish/slayer in like 1 minute of work is really good, and herb/prayer would save some money.

DK drops (solo/LS): 66 hatchets, 14 archer rings, 13 berserker rings, 17 warrior rings, 12 seerculls, 13 mud staves, 7 seers rings

QBD drops: 1 kite, 2 visages, 4 dragonbone kits, 3 effigies, lots of crossbow parts

CR vs. CLS threads always turn into discussions about penis size.
...
It's not called a Compensation Longsword for nothing.

I've sent a 12k combat mission to have Aiel assassinated (poor bastard isn't even Pincers-tier difficulty).

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The long-term sustainability of ports rests mainly on the scrimshaws and the rocktail soup, not the meager xp rewards.

I don't see the tradable armour having much demand in the long run.

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Can someone make a resource gain calculator?

So then I can see if its usefull to use FOTS or not as its only a 10% boost.

 

As from what I understand, the mathematical function for everything in ports:

 

⌊⌊⌊⌊⌊⌊⌊([base] * Totem 1⌋ * Totem 2⌋ * Totem 3⌋ * Totem 4⌋ * Merchant⌋ * Fortune of the Sea⌋ * Warehouse

 

Where (if active, 1 otherwise):

- Totems are 1.01 for trade goods if Jade Statue, 1.01 for resources if Cherrywood tree

- Merchant is either 1.1, 1.2, 1.25 or 1.3 depending on tier of your merchant

- FotS is 1.1

- Warehouse is between 1.01-1.1 for chimes and either 1.05 to 1.1 for your resources, depending on tier

 

Might have the Merchant and FotS switched, would really like to research that but low on FotS personally.

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I don't think they deliberately floored it, they just stored it as an int instead of a float.

 

Deliberate or not, that's how things are.

It also makes Jade Statues a joke, moreso than what their 1% increase already suggested.

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The long-term sustainability of ports rests mainly on the scrimshaws and the rocktail soup, not the meager xp rewards.

I don't see the tradable armour having much demand in the long run.

scrimshaws and soup are already pretty worthless and the market isn't particularly saturated yet. Nobody is paying more then 500k/hr for DPS boosts or additional healing, it's just never going to make up the initial cost.

DK drops (solo/LS): 66 hatchets, 14 archer rings, 13 berserker rings, 17 warrior rings, 12 seerculls, 13 mud staves, 7 seers rings

QBD drops: 1 kite, 2 visages, 4 dragonbone kits, 3 effigies, lots of crossbow parts

CR vs. CLS threads always turn into discussions about penis size.
...
It's not called a Compensation Longsword for nothing.

I've sent a 12k combat mission to have Aiel assassinated (poor bastard isn't even Pincers-tier difficulty).

DM0Yq2c.png

 

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Players bleat on about the lack of high-level content in RuneScape, Jagex eventually release a 90+ skill req D&D, and now 90 is "ridiculously easy" and "pathetic".

 

I don't dispute you wanting to remove skilling time to 90 as a factor in PoP armour, but at some point you have to stop moving the goalposts about what constitutes "high level content".

Stop making skills easier, then.

:-|... This old chestnut...? Really? People have been using that line since the dawn of RuneScape. Given fishing is still trained fastest using methods that were commonplace about five or six years ago... the action bar notwithstanding.

 

Quite apart from that, and I can only assume you've directed that point towards Runespan; what do you want Jagex to do? You want them to continue developing the game in fun and captivating ways, with training methods being part of that development, but you essentially want to make it all pointless and redundant from the get-go because their XP rates don't match up to ZMI or, even better, law running. Why don't they match up? Because you don't like it otherwise.

 

I just don't understand this elitist complex at all. Surely, if you genuinely gave a toss about new players, you'd be saying "This is a great update, one of the best updates in RuneScape history, definitely the best update in 2012... I hope they enjoy it as much as I have, and how they got to access it in the first place, I really couldn't care less about".

I think jagex should have had a clear design plan from the start of rs2 on, categorizing skills in the gathering, combat and buyable categories and parring all skills at around 100k per hour considering efficiency(ie moneymaking). From then forward, there should be no more than an update each 2 years that would up the rates at a steady 10% increase. The problem here is that right now, we are not looking at steady increases- Runespan is a full on nerf(250%), keybag is a huge nerf(150-200%). The list goes on and on. Skills that used to be hard and prestigious(like prayer, for example) are now a joke.

 

And i sill think jagex totally had cost in mind when they were designing the pop sets, as these totally seem like welfare/defensive alternatives to nex sets. They just haven't made defense useful enough for it to be very good(and again, this goes back to how flawed eoc and boss mechanics are). And as someone was explaining the benefit of 4% dps, 17% defense, if used for tanking, reduces the number of food you eat, prolonging trips, adding dps and lessening the chance of death. It all goes full circle. We just need a boss that deals damage regardless of special attacks and has high accuracy.

 

Also, i can't believe there isn't any argument against sigil shields in the same sentence as there is against nex armor. There is basically no difference between those(vs dg shields), and i really can't see how you can argue for one and not the other and not look like a hypocrite.

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I think jagex should have had a clear design plan from the start of rs2 on, categorizing skills in the gathering, combat and buyable categories and parring all skills at around 100k per hour considering efficiency(ie moneymaking).

 

Sadly Jagex has never been able to make any sort of long term plans, best example of this is the Biohazard quest line; been over a decade since it was started and only one new quest in the last 7 years, with absolutely zero signs of ever intending to be be finished. The Elemental Workshop series was supposed to be concluded in the first half of 2012 and have reached Elemental Workshop 7/8/9, and has obviously been forgotten.

You make it sound like running through a few level 87 monsters is hard which it really shouldn't be at your level.

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I think jagex should have had a clear design plan from the start of rs2 on, categorizing skills in the gathering, combat and buyable categories and parring all skills at around 100k per hour considering efficiency(ie moneymaking).

 

Sadly Jagex has never been able to make any sort of long term plans, best example of this is the Biohazard quest line; been over a decade since it was started and only one new quest in the last 7 years, with absolutely zero signs of ever intending to be be finished. The Elemental Workshop series was supposed to be concluded in the first half of 2012 and have reached Elemental Workshop 7/8/9, and has obviously been forgotten.

And that's exactly why, when jagex says they are releasing the best armor in game, you should always tread carefully and really consider what they are saying. Pop armor is the best defensive armor in game, but the problem is, the game doesn't warrant the use of such high defensive bonuses. Right now we have atleast 3 examples of lower tier equipment being superior to higher tier- hex vs sag short, sigil shields vs dg shields and nex vs pop armors. For all three, the lower tier equipment is in some way considered special and is much more difficult to obtain.

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