200M in all Skills

[Makaveli_93]

Makaveli_93, You mentioned my name so many times and I really can't figure out why. You obviously don't know me as well as most of the posters in this thread. You actually think that you know me but thats madness owell

 

Might be a good time to mention, if anyone care about it, one of the purposes of changing my display name was to prove I am different person than what most people think. Please ignore this if you don't care.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

I do efficiency for fun, not to save time. Just to clarify.

 

+1 here. Otherwise I wouldn't be bothering writting this post, for example. I felt so good when I found a better (best) route than foot/zarfot at PP, for example. Not because of who they are or because of being better than another person, but because of the fun of discovering something and because of the fun that Jebrim mentioned.

 

813 pages o.O

 

Ontopic: Gemeos2 #1 200m all predicted 21 dec 2012

 

No, that isn't even my goal.

 

I don't need to personally know you to know what kind of person you are seeing as everyone else said the same things I was saying before. You also support Jebrim's philosophy, that's enough for anyone to judge you.

 

@meetu

Green is on a totally different level and again almost everyone criticizes her play style. I honestly don't care what she does, I was just pointing how weird and not understandable the things she does are. I criticize 1 person (just for giggles) wheras Jebrim does this to 99% of the RS population and seems to get mad about how they aren't doing what he is and calling their afking while training 'legal' botting, that's the difference.

[Gemeos2]

Getting gp is mostly alot harder than just grinding/afking skills like agi or fishing. Sure you can gamble for it but there's always the risk. Suomi is a great example of smart money making, he started doing what only beginners do mostly and after he showed that he's capable of going for 5b xp he started getting donations when he didn't even ask for it. For efficient money making you need to think out side of the box which is something most rs players aren't capable of.

 

Suomi asked a lot for it before free trade.

"he started doing what only beginners do mostly"

Yes, he started out asking for donations.

"and after he showed that he's capable of going for 5b xp he started getting donations when he didn't even ask for it"

But NOW he barely has any need to ask anymore.

 

That's exactly what Meetu was saying.

 

Oh I was just doing the summary =P

[Jebrim]

Somebody pmed me on here with a few questions and was nice about it (and not a total worshipful noob about it either), so I decided to answer him. In it I explained some of what I know about the game engine and how to use it for micro-efficiency. Since I ended up typing it all up and uploading a couple of pics for him, I decided to just copy the relevant parts to you guys too so that you can understand just how complex it can get. It's a long read, but pay careful attention and reread a section if you're confused about it the first read through.

 

Micro-efficiency to me is doing whatever possible to figure out tiny tricks that can be used to improve one's Xp/hr to its maximum height in a specific training method, even if it is not the most efficient in Xp/hr out of every possible method out there. For example, this is like trying to do perfect laps at the Penguin Agility Course, which gives shit Xp/hr in Agility. Of course it isn't limited to just crappy Xp/hr methods, but any method. The focus is simply different from what I call macro-efficiency, which is simply trying to find the general training method that gives the most Xp/hr. This would be like doing the Advanced Barbarian Course at 99 or trying to say which Slayer tasks should be blocked, etc., and basing the data for checking it around kills/hr. So to sum up, micro-efficiency is focused entirely about improving the Xp rate of a specific method, and macro-efficiency is focused about just finding a specific method that gives the most Xp/hr overall.

 

It seems obvious that you would want to take advantage of both. First find the best Xp/hr training method and then perfect it as much as possible. The focus doesn't end up being on the latter as much, though, because it requires a lot more work for only very little gain. One can figure out a new macro-efficient method that gives 20% more Xp/hr, but wouldn't go through much effort to increase such a method by 1-3% Xp/hr. Their general focus is around saving time and then scoff away the tiny time saved with my strategies as not being worth the immense effort for such little time saved. I, on the other hand, believe that it helps determine a certain level of skill to not only figure out the best ways to improve on a method's Xp/hr, but to also implement that knowledge, which can sometimes be a lot harder to do. It doesn't require much skill to simply go to a certain place, but it does require a lot to maximize on that place, depending on how challenging it is. Some are a lot easier than others.

 

What I've done that is unique is that I've grown to understand the game engine in a way that only a few people outside of Jagex do and have additionally thought about how to take advantage of that knowledge when skilling. Without truly understanding ticks and how to take advantage of them when moving around the game, one's attempt at improving their Xp/hr rate becomes seriously limited. They are not able to think of certain tricks because they lack an understanding on how such tricks would actually work. If they are discovered, it is usually by sheer luck and stumbling across it. This is what I used to do in the past before having my understanding of the game engine, where I now know why the tricks work as they do, but am also able to see other new potential tricks immediately for any place I go to.

 

Here's a little game engine explanation for you and a couple of tricks to learn from it. This is all stuff I figured out on my own.

 

Popular belief aside, a tick is not a block of time with a length of 0.6 seconds. A tick is a single instant in time, perhaps with a width of a millisecond or whatever, where the server sends information simultaneously to all players' computers on a world to do or not do an action. The tick OCCURS every 600ms, just like a tick on a clock occurs every 1000ms (1 second). Any action the server tells your computer to do must have been determined prior to the tick occurring. The server needed to have input from the user prior to sending that information. When you click to run, that run message is sent to the server. There is distance time it must take to reach the server. If during that travel time another tick occurs, you wouldn't move. As soon as it reaches the server, it is processed and an action is assigned to it that will be sent back to your computer when the next tick occurs. Upon that information arriving at your computer, along with a timestamp, your character will start an animation of you running (assuming a higher order animation is not already playing). Since there will always be a time lag between the server and your computer, the animation will attempt to rush forward to try to realign itself to where it should be tick-wise. Usually it is so small it isn't noticeable, but there are ways to really get it to show. This is important to understand when trying to measure things in RS based off animations: Animations are not a perfectly accurate tool for measuring ticks and one must be very careful when attempting to do so.

 

If multiple actions are received by the server before a tick occurs, there are a couple different things that can happen. Some actions can be combined with one another, but only when done in a certain order. In terms of running, if you choose 2 different spots to run, the latest one will always be the one you end up going to. You may also eat and run in the same tick, as long as you eat first.

 

One thing to take from all of this is that actions do not occur exactly 0.6 seconds after you click. The time it takes varies greatly depending on your connection to the internet and when you actually clicked. If you have a very good connection, you will almost always have a situation where you move in less than 600ms from when you clicked. For example, you click to move when there is 250ms until the next tick occurs. Your ping is 45ms, which is a measure of the time to the server and back. So assume your upload time is 25ms. The server receives your information with 210ms to go until the next tick. As far as the server and game overall are concerned, you will move to a new location when that tick occurs, although you won't find out about that until 20ms after the tick occurs, which is when you start moving. Overall, you clicked and it took you 210+25=235ms before you actually ended up moving.

 

For the most part, the above only helps with timing when to click for things and also timing how long an action takes in ticks, as well as what actions can be combined together and also with quickly clicking again to fix an accidental misclick, which can save you from wasting potential time and Xp.

 

Onto the really useful stuff though.

 

As you may or may not be aware, running consists of moving 2 squares every 1 tick. Technically though, you are never registered within the game/server as having actually ever being on that 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc. square when you run. You simply skip over it, a short teleport every time the server ticks. The animation itself is simply an illusion to make it look neater. If you attempt to interrupt your run with another action, such as running in a different direction, the new action will only take place in the following tick after the server receives it. You will continue to run that extra 2 squares before then turning to your new direction. This is why you will accidentally run past an item that you try to pick up a bit too late and then have to travel 1 square backwards to pick it up.

 

When you choose to run an odd number of squares, things work a little differently. Jagex designed running to work with a walk in the last tick of a run. Running is moving 2 squares every 1 tick. Walking is moving 1 square every 1 tick. When you run 3 squares, it takes 1 tick of running 2 squares and 1 tick of walking 1 square, for a total of 2 ticks. When you run 4 squares, it takes 2 ticks of running 2 squares. So running 3 squares takes the same amount of time as running 4 squares. 5 squares and 6 squares both take 3 ticks, 7 and 8 take 4, etc. And this is where we get to my most favorite trick.

 

How do you take advantage of the above running information to maximise the amount of distance covered per tick? That is the question I asked myself repeatedly when I stumbled across it a few years ago. It's something Zarfot knew about already, but had never told anybody about. I eventually did figure out a use for that knowledge. It involves interacting with objects in the game. These objects can be anything from an NPC, to an Agility obstacle, to a lever in Dungeoneering, or an urn in Pyramid Plunder. Essentially, whenever you have a situation that involves running to such an object, clicking it, and then running away, you have the potential to increase your speed by examining the situation around you instead of simply clicking on the object like most people do. If you do so, you'll simply move to the closest side of the object, or the programmed side, or typically the West > South > East > North situation(I may have East and North backwards, idr).

 

If, however, you count the squares nearby, or even visually look at the animation as you approach the object, you can use that to help you. In general, you want to look out for even runs and odd runs. Even runs end in a run with a sudden stop. Odd runs end in a run with a slow walk at the end before a stop. To maximise the total distance travelled in the least amount of ticks, one must try to avoid odd runs that make you spend an extra tick in an unnecessary situation.

 

 

The above example shows me at the Brimhaven Agility Arena working with a ticket dispenser. In example 1, the top 2 images, I'm faced with a situation to run to the dispenser, click on it and wait 1 tick for the action to register, and then move away immediately towards the right to step on the pressure pad obstacle. If I chose the conventional method of simply clicking on the dispenser and then running away towards the obstacle, as shown in the top left image, then it would take me a total of 6 ticks. The 1st tick is taken moving 2 squares up, the 2nd tick is for the walk to the south side of the dispenser, the 3rd tick is for the short action time required to register with the server that I hit it, the 4th tick is where I am as I choose to run away, the 5th tick is another 2 squares away, and the 6th tick is me walking onto the pressure pad, an obstacle that isn't clickable but requires simply moving onto it to start. In total, there are 2 odd runs here. The first is 3 squares (2 ticks), and the second is 5 squares (3 ticks), and adding in the dispenser gives you the whole route of 6 ticks.

 

On the other hand, the top right picture shows strategic clicking, where I click the ground to the right of it before clicking the dispenser, making me travel the whole distance in 2 even runs instead, 4 squares in each run, for a total of 4 ticks plus the dispenser which makes it 5 ticks. This requires a little careful timing and accuracy when you move, and thus some practice.

 

The bottom 2 pictures, example 2, shows me trying to get to the obstacle on the other side of where I start. What happens in the bottom left case with the normal conventional clicking is that I end up having to run around the dispenser to where I would've been if I had simply clicked the side of it to begin with. It ends up taking longer without the thinking of it through.

 

One must usually know where one is heading after they end up choosing. One conclusion you may take from the above pictures is to simply assume to always click on the side you're heading to after you click off. This would be a mistake. The following example shows how you'd actually lose time by deciding to not simply click on the obstacle itself.

 

 

This one is a little harder to see because the dispenser is blocking a possible square you can stand on. This case shows you being an even number of squares away from the object. If you click on the dispenser in the top image and then click to run off to the north log, you will complete it in 3 ticks with 2 runs of 1 tick each. If, however (as shown in the bottom image), you decided to click around the obstacle on the north side first, you'd force yourself to do a run of 3 squares (2 ticks) followed by a walk of 1 square (1 tick), resulting in that path taking an extra tick longer than it otherwise would have.

 

The lesson to learn from this is that there is no one simple trick that will work in every case. For any time in RS where you must interact with an object like this, you must either count your squares or at least visually watch for the walking animation at the end to determine if it is an even or odd distance. Almost always, taking advantage of this trick will require you to be doing something repetitive so that you can practice the particular clicking route for that particular situation. There are many opportunities to mathematically figure out the most efficient clicking route all throughout RuneScape, such as with Dungeoneering or Pyramid Plunder (this is where Gemeos2 figured out a more efficient route than Zarfot/Foot).

 

When I spoke of Foot/Sorbosander/Dukky, they know everything already that I've just told you and have spent time figuring out ways around RS to take advantage of this. For me, it is simply second nature to automatically view the world around me in terms of counting squares/checking for that odd run with the walk at the end. It's particularly helpful at the new Agility place as well, which is similar to Brimhaven in many ways. These tricks have been known for a couple of years now and yet the vast majority of maxed are totally clueless about the lost potential efficiency, even if it gives only a slight increase in Xp/hr. If you want to make serious progress in determining tricks for micro-efficiency, this is some must-have knowledge that will help you avoid overlooking some potential tricks.

[curtis95112]

Thank you for that information Jebrim. Most interesting thing I've read on this thread in ages.

 

It's evident you're playing RS on the meta-level (Not that it wasn't obvious before lol). No wonder most of RS doesn't appreciate what you're doing.

[Sorator]

That is some very interesting information, and I very much thank you for sharing it with us.

 

However, that pretty much confirms something I already knew - as a casual player, such micro-efficiency is far more in-depth than I care to go. If I wanted to play for efficiency, however, that would be incredibly useful information, and at the least it's an interesting read and will let me understand a bit more of what goes on when I'm frantically clicking.

[curtis95112]

That is some very interesting information, and I very much thank you for sharing it with us.

 

However, that pretty much confirms something I already knew - as a casual player, such micro-efficiency is far more in-depth than I care to go. If I wanted to play for efficiency, however, that would be incredibly useful information, and at the least it's an interesting read and will let me understand a bit more of what goes on when I'm frantically clicking.

 

Agreed. The effort/exp ratio is horrendous. But it's nearly a separate game in its own right. Closer to general problem solving than the grind RS usually is. I actually think it seems more fun than regular Runescape.

[Meetu13]

Is Jebrim's last posts' content old information for others or have I just spent 3-4 years being unusually 'micro-efficient' to some extent without really realising it?

[curtis95112]

Is Jebrim's last posts' content old information for others or have I just spent 3-4 years being unusually 'micro-efficient' to some extent without really realising it?

 

Everyone is microefficient to the extent they think about the inner workings of the game. Some naturally think quite deeply. Some don't really care because they're watching movies at the same time.

 

I'm quite sure a significant minority knew about that particular example or similar ones. I'm also sure Jebrim has more sophisticated tricks he's not writing about because they'd take too long to explain.

[Jebrim]

Is Jebrim's last posts' content old information for others or have I just spent 3-4 years being unusually 'micro-efficient' to some extent without really realising it?

 

Everyone is microefficient to the extent they think about the inner workings of the game. Some naturally think quite deeply. Some don't really care because they're watching movies at the same time.

 

I'm quite sure a significant minority knew about that particular example or similar ones. I'm also sure Jebrim has more sophisticated tricks he's not writing about because they'd take too long to explain.

Understanding the game engine is necessary to help notice extra tricks that you otherwise wouldn't have noticed. You don't need to understand it to get any increase in Xp/hr in a method lol. The fact remains that this is very useful information that applies to a vast variety of things across RS that simply isn't taken advantage of. Heck, keyers should know this since they're focused on speed so much. It's also useful for killing monsters, where you may want to run 3 squares away and then returning to attack an NPC. During this time the NPC would've walked 1 square towards you, leaving you 2 squares away and thus 1 tick away, allowing you to effectively lure an NPC without ever losing a tick. You can use this to get closer to a door or item or another npc monster. Perhaps with slaying it may be useful so as to avoid any possible ticks losses occurring for when you're not in combat. It's possible to stumble across a workable solution, but it's a lot easier to find tricks when you already understand the game engine.

[curtis95112]

Jebrim, are you planning on ever compiling your knowledge into a guide (or several, as the case will probably be)?

 

It would be very useful stuff. Maybe only appreciated by a fraction of the RS community, but you don't seem to particularly enjoy associating with the rest anyway.

[Jebrim]

I've tried to start writing one a couple times in the past, but I always give up early on because I'd rather just go back to doing Agility instead of just writing about it. I'm usually a lazy guy. :P

 

@Makaveli

Do you see now why I'd rather be respected for my other accomplishments instead of just for grinding Agility for many thousands of hours? Grinding won't teach you this.

[curtis95112]

I've tried to start writing one a couple times in the past, but I always give up early on because I'd rather just go back to doing Agility instead of just writing about it. I'm usually a lazy guy. :P

 

@Makaveli

Do you see now why I'd rather be respected for my other accomplishments instead of just for grinding Agility for many thousands of hours? Grinding won't teach you this.

 

Shame. Maybe one day you'll lose your Internet connection and you'll have nothing to do but write it lol. Hopefully you don't have a RS simulator :P.

[gems]

hi jebrim, thanks for writing books no one will read because there half a page long.

oh and i bet suomi is so happy about christmas because he gets more donations as gifts to him, he probably dosnt care thats why he dosnt celebrate it he just plays rs

 

brb going to learn how to read more than 20 words at a time.

 

I already knew the stuff in that post (except the specifics about the agility arena because i have only been there once in the last 6 years or so), and like working out tricks for doing things faster... but then I'm too lazy to actually take advantage of them. :P I just work them out for the fun - I couldn't really care less about playing "efficiently", and a lot of the time the things are impractical anyway.

[Jebrim]

Once again, it isn't limited to just the Brimhaven Arena. That was just one example lol. It's anything where you have to interact with an object, including NPC's. I also posted some of this info on this thread before as well, about a year ago, and specifically about how ticks really work. I'm sure some of you guys remember that post.

[Jordyy]

Once again, it isn't limited to just the Brimhaven Arena. That was just one example lol. It's anything where you have to interact with an object, including NPC's. I also posted some of this info on this thread before as well, about a year ago, and specifically about how ticks really work. I'm sure some of you guys remember that post.

Can we see it step by step with every training method? Then we can all get 100% Jebrim respect.

[Hedgehog]

I thought most of jebrim's info was common knowledge ;/

It's just a pain in the ass to use.

[Viv]

I thought most of jebrim's info was common knowledge ;/

It's just a pain in the ass to use.

yea in general most people don't use micro-efficient methods because much easier to semi-afk but if training a skill that isnt semi-afk trying to get more exp/hr is part of the fun lol

 

Oh this is also why people are much more obsessed with dungeon times but wouldnt know there exp/hr of afking a skill

[Gemeos2]

 

The lesson to learn from this is that there is no one simple trick that will work in every case. For any time in RS where you must interact with an object like this, you must either count your squares or at least visually watch for the walking animation at the end to determine if it is an even or odd distance. Almost always, taking advantage of this trick will require you to be doing something repetitive so that you can practice the particular clicking route for that particular situation. There are many opportunities to mathematically figure out the most efficient clicking route all throughout RuneScape, such as with Dungeoneering or Pyramid Plunder (this is where Gemeos2 figured out a more efficient route than Zarfot/Foot).

 

Exactly. It wouldn't be possible if one day you didn't teach me that "1=2 3=4 5=6" when you were helping me making perfect lap at gnome course.

 

I also have to think about this all the time because, in certain time, it's recomended to you leave room 7 and go to last room @pp (last room gives more Xp). So, I have to quickly calculate whats the best door to go at instead of randomly choose one. Sometimes the difference is just 1-2 squares so people that don't have that knowledge wouldn't be able to do it correctly (sometimes without the luck factor).

 

 

Even thought I already knew it before (because we already talked about this), thanks about the post. Runescape would be a better place if all people helped each other.

[Superheat]

Thanks for posting that Jebrim, this shows you know what you are talking about it rather then you just saying you know your stuff. However, although this is clever it's still all pretty basic. I'd love to learn more about it, and would appreciate it if we could get some more information on this. Whether on this thread, pm, or whatever.

[Werpheus]

there can only be one god of agility.

 

As Jebrim said before, this can also be applied to other activities in Runescape (for example Thieving).

 

I agree with Superheat and would like to know more if you're willing to share it, Jebrim.

[Jebrim]

Thanks for posting that Jebrim, this shows you know what you are talking about it rather then you just saying you know your stuff. However, although this is clever it's still all pretty basic. I'd love to learn more about it, and would appreciate it if we could get some more information on this. Whether on this thread, pm, or whatever.

Exactly. It wouldn't be possible if one day you didn't teach me that "1=2 3=4 5=6" when you were helping me making perfect lap at gnome course.

 

I also have to think about this all the time because, in certain time, it's recomended to you leave room 7 and go to last room @pp (last room gives more Xp). So, I have to quickly calculate whats the best door to go at instead of randomly choose one. Sometimes the difference is just 1-2 squares so people that don't have that knowledge wouldn't be able to do it correctly (sometimes without the luck factor).

 

 

Even thought I already knew it before (because we already talked about this), thanks about the post. Runescape would be a better place if all people helped each other.

 

Your explanation about the doors, Gemeos, is similar to what I'm dealing with here at the Factory, except a lot more complex and having to do it for every single route I take. There's a massive amount of math that I've done at the Factory involving ticks that becomes really complex when you determine certain routes are best only in certain situations, ultimately coming to a position where essentially almost every route is efficient in some potential scenario of doors/charges/score/apparatus and you must try immediately on your feet remember or figure out the route that is most efficient while at the same time gathering the information required for such a decision. It's very tough, and one day I may make a guide on it. I had always wanted to do one about Brimhaven, which I found to be complicated mathematically, but this Factory goes so much further and is so much more deserving that I'll probably just end up with that when/if I do, particularly since it's also the fastest Agility place. So if I were to make a guide on anything, as Superheat suggests, it'd probably be focused around this Factory, instead of just some Agility tricks I have.

 

There's lots I don't know about potential tricks for the rest of RS, but it helps me in finding them by always viewing the game in ticks, the way I described. I don't at all pretend to know more about strategies in total than most people, heck I haven't even experienced much of the RS content, but I do pride myself on being able to figure out stuff on my own and not have to be taught it, thereby allowing my to figure out new tricks that others may not know about.

[muckytears]

hi jebrim, thanks for writing books no one will read because there half a page long.

oh and i bet suomi is so happy about christmas because he gets more donations as gifts to him, he probably dosnt care thats why he dosnt celebrate it he just plays rs

 

fail. is all i can say to those comments.

 

OT: has suomi not logged off today or has he gone for that holiday I think he mentioned a few pages back? xD

 

Also, is jakes lack of money confirmed? he might just be leading on those thoughts and then pulling off a tonne of xp within one week to try and get 1st place - don't flame me, I'm just curious if it's a definite thing that he's low on money =]

[likeme312]

nice post jebrim, didn't know this, thanks

[Jebrim]

hi jebrim, thanks for writing books no one will read because there half a page long.

oh and i bet suomi is so happy about christmas because he gets more donations as gifts to him, he probably dosnt care thats why he dosnt celebrate it he just plays rs

 

fail. is all i can say to those comments.

 

OT: has suomi not logged off today or has he gone for that holiday I think he mentioned a few pages back? xD

 

Also, is jakes lack of money confirmed? he might just be leading on those thoughts and then pulling off a tonne of xp within one week to try and get 1st place - don't flame me, I'm just curious if it's a definite thing that he's low on money =]

Idk, he said a few months ago that he had 1.8b, so I'm not really sure where people are getting their info.

[Evertim]

No offense but I was expecting a lot more.

 

If you've ever done perfect laps at Advanced Gnome for any lengthy amount of time, you're constantly seeing how running functions exactly how you're describing. Also during the boot camp random.

 

Good information to have though of course, I myself just never cared enough to do anything with it lol. The more technical things I only had a basic understanding of (in regards to ticks) though, so thanks for enlightening me there.