Efficiency Trolls

[Quyneax]

In my opinion fun versus efficiency is not a debate. They are not mutually exclusive. They may not even be related (depending on the situation). Anyone stating that efficiency must come at a cost of fun is an idiot, plain and simple. Getting high xp/hr is fun to people, knowing that it is the fastest overall method, including moneymaking etcetera is too. However this efficient method may not be the most fun 'in action'. E.g. if you love A and merely like B, but B is a lot more efficient, then you could say the total fun from liking B + B being efficient > loving A. But that does not mean efficiency 'costs' fun. It also pays out in fun, the result is a net gain in fun.

 

Something is efficient relative to a goal. The most efficient way to get 99 magic is to sell your red partyhat & use the highest xp method, this will get you to 99 the fastest. Trouble is most people don't just want 99 magic. They always want 99 magic on the way to something else. So when posting on H&A, you must make an assumption on what that else is. It is rarely mentioned at all. Personally I always assume someone will always go for higher levels. That eventually leads to max total, even if it is years away. I also never assume somebody is going to quit.

 

I do not know who started the 'fun vs. efficiency' argument and frankly I don't care. But whoever it was, they don't understand the issue.

[TheAncient]

Yes. Fun vs efficiency is a misnomer for a personal feud between many users.

[essiw]

That was a long read.

To bring up an old discussion:

I think it is not trolling to post efficient methods. But if the TS specific said that he doesn't want those efficient ways and just want some advice about the way he wants to play, it is trolling to say something like: do it this way, it is more efficient. However if you say it in a nice way and give more information about why you think so. It isn't trolling. But if the TS then says he doesn't want that kind of information, you should not repeat it and start arguing with him/her. The last thing is what irritates me the most.

[Blyaunte]

Yes. Fun vs efficiency is a misnomer for a personal feud between many users.

 

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

[Dire_Wolf]

To me trolling is people who just post a short comment to my topics without elaborating why what they wrote is the right way. And also posting irelevant comments and not understanding what the person asking for advice has asked for.

[TheAncient]

That's not trolling. There is a huge distinction vetween being lazy/careless and being malicious (trolling)

[Youmu]

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

We have cookiez. :3

 

And yes you should definitely give it a try, you'll be surprised at how much time you'll save by using the best methods to whatever skill.

[TheAncient]

Yes. Fun vs efficiency is a misnomer for a personal feud between many users.

 

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

You totally missed the point. Fun and efficient are not mutually exclusive or sometimes even are unrelated. You don't have to choose vetween the two.

[Noxx]

Yes. Fun vs efficiency is a misnomer for a personal feud between many users.

 

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

I thought you've always been on the dark side? :unsure:

Knowing her she's going to see that as an insult and ignore its comical value

 

OT: I think being efficient scares so many people because for once they won't just be able to click the mouse once and watch that exp counter tick over, they're going to have to actually "work" for it. Which really is the most fun way anyway.

[Blyaunte]

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

We have cookiez. :3

 

And yes you should definitely give it a try, you'll be surprised at how much time you'll save by using the best methods to whatever skill.

 

 

You totally missed the point. Fun and efficient are not mutually exclusive or sometimes even are unrelated. You don't have to choose etween the two.

 

Well -- yes, I've missed the point, and no I haven't missed the point. Point is, I'm keen to get more "efficient" in my training ...

 

 

I thought you've always been on the dark side? :unsure:

Knowing her she's going to see that as an insult and ignore its comical value

 

You obviously don't know me very well then -- because I LOL'd irl.

 

Oh and:

 

[Noxx]

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

We have cookiez. :3

 

And yes you should definitely give it a try, you'll be surprised at how much time you'll save by using the best methods to whatever skill.

 

 

You totally missed the point. Fun and efficient are not mutually exclusive or sometimes even are unrelated. You don't have to choose etween the two.

 

Well -- yes, I've missed the point, and no I haven't missed the point. Point is, I'm keen to get more "efficient" in my training ...

 

 

I thought you've always been on the dark side? :unsure:

Knowing her she's going to see that as an insult and ignore its comical value

 

You obviously don't know me very well then -- because I LOL'd irl.

 

Oh and:

 

:thumbsup: Success!

[Alphanos]

Yes. Fun vs efficiency is a misnomer for a personal feud between many users.

 

To be honest -- I've usually chosen "fun" over efficient in the past.

 

That said -- I'm game to give "efficiency" a try.

 

 

 

Wait! Does this mean I've gone over to the dark side? :blink:

 

I'm not familiar with your fun/efficiency/etc history, so this isn't directed specifically at you. But perhaps the most important concept to learn for anyone interested in efficient play is that of opportunity cost. A simple way to think of opportunity cost is the difference between what you "save" with a method of training, versus how much you could earn in the same amount of time if you were dedicated to moneymaking.

 

Let me give an example. Based on current market mid prices, training prayer at a POH altar costs 23.16 gold per experience using dragon bones, or 16.07 gold per experience using babydragon bones. Thus many people train using babydragon bones because it is "cheaper". However, if your goal is to gain 1 million prayer experience, at 231,840 experience per hour via dragon bones it will take 4.31 hours, and at 96,600 experience per hour via babydragon bones it will take 10.35 hours. Thus even though using dragon bones will cost 23.16M vs 16.07M, 7M more, training using dragon bones is much cheaper for almost any player planning to spend that much on prayer experience. This is because although you are paying 7M more, you're also saving 6 hours. So long as you can make more than 1.17M/hr using other methods, you're better off using dragon bones - this is not even counting any experience you may earn while moneymaking, which may also be valuable. In fact, if you can earn more than 2.9M/hr, it's actually even cheaper to train using frost dragon bones.

 

TLDR: More expensive training methods often save you loads of money, so long as you can make money faster than the difference in training costs.

[BioIce]

Would the "efficient" players sum up their gameplay style in a sentence or two? I'm curious.

 

Mine is hardly what you'd consider efficient. Get a boatload of cash in the least amount of time possible, then pour all that money into buying 99s using the fastest training methods with the least amount of clicking. Same goes for gathering skills minus the coin if I wanted to max out everything. That means all AFK/semi-AFK methods are good for me.

 

How about you?

[TheAncient]

Our gameplay styles can vary dramatically.

 

What we have in common is a desire to figure out new and relevant ways of looking at things and doing whatever we want to do. We look down upon a failure to do research.

[Alphanos]

Would the "efficient" players sum up their gameplay style in a sentence or two? I'm curious.

 

Mine is hardly what you'd consider efficient. Get a boatload of cash in the least amount of time possible, then pour all that money into buying 99s using the fastest training methods with the least amount of clicking. Same goes for gathering skills minus the coin if I wanted to max out everything. That means all AFK/semi-AFK methods are good for me.

 

How about you?

 

I think there are both groups who seek to minimize the amount of in-game time spent on a goal, and groups who seek to minimize the player effort spent on a goal. I'm closer to the latter. For example, barbarian fishing is undoubtedly faster experience than monkfish. However, since it requires constant attention, I prefer monkfishing which can be done at the same time as other things like reading, watching TV, etc. Barbarian fishing is more efficient in all Runescape numerical calculation senses of the term, but monkfishing could be considered more efficient in terms of experience gained per unit of attention.

[Quyneax]

Would the "efficient" players sum up their gameplay style in a sentence or two? I'm curious.

 

Mine is hardly what you'd consider efficient. Get a boatload of cash in the least amount of time possible, then pour all that money into buying 99s using the fastest training methods with the least amount of clicking. Same goes for gathering skills minus the coin if I wanted to max out everything. That means all AFK/semi-AFK methods are good for me.

 

How about you?

 

I think there are both groups who seek to minimize the amount of in-game time spent on a goal, and groups who seek to minimize the player effort spent on a goal. I'm closer to the latter. For example, barbarian fishing is undoubtedly faster experience than monkfish. However, since it requires constant attention, I prefer monkfishing which can be done at the same time as other things like reading, watching TV, etc. Barbarian fishing is more efficient in all Runescape numerical calculation senses of the term, but monkfishing could be considered more efficient in terms of experience gained per unit of attention.

I tried monkfish but I ended up paying attention to them, so I can do barbarian fishing just as well, and the feeling of getting faster xp is nice :).

 

But it is interesting to see how dxp/dhr efficiency and xp/day efficiency compare. What I mean is that if you can get 100k xp/hr but you hate the method so you only do 10 minutes of it and then log off, it's not really useful. So a 50k xp/hr method you can do for one hour a day would be more efficient in a certain sense. Trouble is of course that it's (nearly) impossible to actually take that into account in efficiency ratios. Also, it's debatable whether you should take irl time or in-game time for efficiency (as is an issue with farming).

[Th e Doctor]

Lots of posts and just finished reading them, first of all

 

At pulli, again you have the definition of efficiency wrong. A persons inability to use the most efficient methods does not mean that the methods they can do are the most efficient. Classic example is brett favres throwing mechanic. Nothing about it is proper in terms of efficient movement from a sports performance stand point, but he saw great success with it (and had fun), he would however been even better had he been trained to throw correctly.

 

 

I'm studying aerospace engineering.. Here efficiency is always the questions to ask.. However efficiency is nothing without looking at the circumstances: soemthing is only efficient under certain circumstances. If you don't grasp this I will have to keep calling you a "clown" since further discussion is not really possible.. It's like those who are answering (when I ask for the average drop rate of item X): "it's random"; Or trying to discuss fundamental physics (bing bang) with theists..

 

First of all if you read the OP you would have seen that any comments that are inflammatory towards a persons religious beliefs are against the rules. Im a theist and im offended, mostly because I do undedrstand your "bing" bang theory.

 

Secondly I'm studying exercise science and so I deal with efficiency a lot as well, namely efficiency of movement VO2max etc. So I am well aware that efficiency is determined by its context. Your ad hominim arguements about my intelligence however don't make your point valid. Namely because we all have the same context, that being a game. And the only way to measure the efficiency of something is with definite quantitative numbers. The numbers we have to work with in this game are gp, exp, and time. Trying to incinuate that something like killing green dragons is more efficient gp/hr versus killing TD's for gp/hr on the basis that you lack the skill to do so is nonsensical. Your inability to kill TD's from lack of skill does not change the fact that it is indeed better gp/hr.

 

Don't try to act like efficient ways of playing this game are anywhere close to as complex as something like aerospace engineering.

 

Edit

 

For clarification we reserve the word "best" for describing things that can be measured quantitatively, because on matters of opinion it loses all its capabilites to describe anything. If I enjoy killing lvl 2 men it doesn't make it the best money maker. It makes it my favorite. It is ok to have something that is your favorite that isn't the best, just don't call it the best, call it your favorite.

[TheAncient]

. It is ok to have something that is your favorite that isn't the best, just don't call it the best, call it your favorite.

 

quoted for win. also, for pointing out pulli's terrible argument lol.

[Bangin_Blonde]

I don't do efficiency. I don't find it fun and I play this game to have fun. I do what I want, when I want. Just more interesting that way.

[Dr_Vermin]

A few thoughts on goals and efficiency.

 

About goals: A goal cannot be efficient or inefficient. Arguing about whether or not a goal is efficient is like arguing what turquoise tastes like. For example: say Alice has goal 'Get 99 woodcutting as fast as possible' and Bob has goal 'Get 99 woodcutting by only chopping normal or oak trees'. Neither goal is efficient or inefficient. There is, however, a most efficient way to complete both goals. The most efficient way to complete Bob's goal is inefficient for Alice's goal, and the most efficient way to complete Alice's goal doesn't work with Bob's goal at all.

 

I've seen this scenario happen a few times on the forums.

A: What is the most efficient way to complete goal X?

B: Goal X is inefficient. Complete goal Y instead.

 

In this case B isn't helping A be more efficient; they're suggesting an entirely different goal. Any goal, no matter how arbitrary, has a most efficient method (it can be assumed the costs are money and time unless otherwise stated). A player with a goal that doesn't involve maximising exp/hr isnt necessarily being inefficient.

 

 

About efficiency: Efficiency is not synonymous with fastest exp/hr, no matter how many people think so. The true meaning of efficiency is completing a goal whilst minimising costs, or maximising a target using limited resources (or some combination of the two). The costs don't have to be money and time*. The objective doesn't have to be experience or money. As long as the objective is being maximised, and costs are being minimised, the player is being efficient. If we're being really pedantic, whenever there are 2 or more types of cost (usually money and time) there has to be some way of equating them to work out the efficiency of a method- how much gp is 1 second worth?

 

Another thing: efficiency is meaningless without a goal.

So slayer, as a method, is not efficient. It isn't inefficient either. It only becomes one of those things after a goal has been stated. If your goal is to train agility, it's an inefficient method; if your goal is to train slayer or combat, it's an efficient method.

 

*Sidenote here: the costs need to be something that is quantifyable and takes effort to aquire, so in RuneScape, money and time are really the only viable choices (with money then being equated to time, so really just time. And then there's the whole irl time vs rs time. I'll admit I don't really have any idea when it goes this deep). If for some reason you want to achieve a goal whilst minimising exp gained, you might count exp gained as a cost, along with time. It could be included into the goal (ie. get a pimped up cannon without getting over 800k smith exp) with money and time remaining the costs to be minimised to complete the goal efficiently. I don't really know which makes more sense.

[pulli23]

Lots of posts and just finished reading them, first of all

 

At pulli, again you have the definition of efficiency wrong. A persons inability to use the most efficient methods does not mean that the methods they can do are the most efficient. Classic example is brett favres throwing mechanic. Nothing about it is proper in terms of efficient movement from a sports performance stand point, but he saw great success with it (and had fun), he would however been even better had he been trained to throw correctly.

 

 

I'm studying aerospace engineering.. Here efficiency is always the questions to ask.. However efficiency is nothing without looking at the circumstances: soemthing is only efficient under certain circumstances. If you don't grasp this I will have to keep calling you a "clown" since further discussion is not really possible.. It's like those who are answering (when I ask for the average drop rate of item X): "it's random"; Or trying to discuss fundamental physics (bing bang) with theists..

 

First of all if you read the OP you would have seen that any comments that are inflammatory towards a persons religious beliefs are against the rules. Im a theist and im offended, mostly because I do undedrstand your "bing" bang theory.

 

Secondly I'm studying exercise science and so I deal with efficiency a lot as well, namely efficiency of movement VO2max etc. So I am well aware that efficiency is determined by its context. Your ad hominim arguements about my intelligence however don't make your point valid. Namely because we all have the same context, that being a game. And the only way to measure the efficiency of something is with definite quantitative numbers. The numbers we have to work with in this game are gp, exp, and time. Trying to incinuate that something like killing green dragons is more efficient gp/hr versus killing TD's for gp/hr on the basis that you lack the skill to do so is nonsensical. Your inability to kill TD's from lack of skill does not change the fact that it is indeed better gp/hr.

 

Don't try to act like efficient ways of playing this game are anywhere close to as complex as something like aerospace engineering.

 

Edit

 

For clarification we reserve the word "best" for describing things that can be measured quantitatively, because on matters of opinion it loses all its capabilites to describe anything. If I enjoy killing lvl 2 men it doesn't make it the best money maker. It makes it my favorite. It is ok to have something that is your favorite that isn't the best, just don't call it the best, call it your favorite.

 

 

Wait, you know that efficiency is based upon a context.... Yet you don't see the fact that the context also includes what a human can and what a human can not do? Just like choices made by goverments (in the form of taxes) change the fact which plane is more efficient at which country.

In runescape efficiency is not only determined with cost & time analyse; As said difficulty (which in runescape itself manifests as possibility to do "spike" loads as well as the ability to continue the method for long times) also is an important factor. You can try to refuse this, but whenever you give advice about what is more efficient you should always take this into account - if you can't calculate it: that is fine but always add the note then: "this method is very difficult, an easier method is ...." so the poster of the question can still determine wether or not the method is most efficient for him.

 

This might sometimes tip the balance in favour of other methods, and unless you can prove it is "ridiculous" you can never completely write down a method to do something. For example IF prayer flashing would become very, very important (ie prayers are needed, yet prayer potion price is many times as expensive as they now are) a person might be more efficient using a longsword (or maul) over the rapier: with a slower speed he would be able to flash his prayers better, leading in less (taken) damage or more dealt damage!

[Alg]

I'm beginning to think the biggest problem with both sides is that neither will shut up about the other. Could just agree to disagree, would save everyone else the time of having to read through it on every thread that pops up about the topic (Which, unfortunately, is a lot).

[xpx]

First off, Trolling is NOT posting wrong information/bad ideas. Please can people stop labelling that as trolling. Trolling is more in line with flamebaiting, posting something wrong with the intention of it having a negative impact.

 

 

 

I don't get where help & advice transitioned into help with efficiency.

 

Posting in H&A isn't asking for the most efficient methods unless they are asked for in some way. Best way, better, tip on doing, help and other terms are all subjective. When discussing a topic, efficiency and fun have to be considered. If somebody suggests a method of doing something which they find fun, why on earth shouldn't they suggest it? There could be a chance the other person would find it fun. A topic creator deserves a wide range of advice, not just advice which is efficient. By all means post them your idea of the most efficient way, it may help them, but it also may not as they may find it boring.

Though posting wrong information/bad ideas isn't considered trolling, a superior of yours has said they both go under the same rules as flaming/trolling and are reportable offenses(atlest in H&A, sometimes in more serious GD topics).

 

And yeah, i agree with green in this post being a horrible example of the TIF intellectual community- a retired player, still a moderator looking at logic the way it never should be looked at.

 

Efficiency is objective. If you take enough parameters into account the efficient method will always be the best method of doing things. The usual suspects are cost and xp rates, but afkness and clicking intensity can also be considered to make it more objective, thus many methods can be efficient for the same skill at the same income.

 

Fun is subjective. What one considers fun may very well be extremely boring for another person. It is also really hard to judge what people do consider fun- for most everything, doing anything for 18 hours straight is not fun, thus it's extremely hard to judge how fun a method is, judge how it stacks up against other methods or how it may seem to another person.

 

Taking this knowledge into account, H&A, in the mind of this moderator, should be an endless stream of spam of anything anyone can every think of. Everything can be fun for a short amount of time, thus anything that even remotely fits under the bill of training could be advised(training strength pushing trough wheat, for example).

 

What i see as help and advice is more knowledgeable and experienced players giving their best and most efficient knowledge(as efficiency is objective, remember) to train select skills, and for the majority of occasions, this works very well. The times it doesn't work is when the OP has misunderstandings about efficiency or when less knowledgeable people try to chip in with bad advice, in which case it can get ugly. Then again, i've only seen a guidelines list of H&A improvements from the efficiency clowns, not those who call us that, so that is something you all should consider.

 

H&A IS about efficiency, whether you like it or not.

[TheAncient]

Maximize money, xp, fun, time spent w friends

Minimize clicks per hour, money, attention, time

 

Simple enough.

[Quyneax]

Maximize money, xp, fun, time spent w friends

Minimize clicks per hour, money, attention, time

 

Simple enough.

Not attention, also money is a bit useless to a point (hence people use expensive methods).