Jiblix and Ken Genosis Demodded Over Speaking Out

[brad1431]

but by pointing our their flaws, you are giving them a chance to fix them.

 

The best customer lets a business know what they did wrong so that they have a chance to fix the problem and retain the customer

 

The worst customer doesnt say a word and never purchases from the vendor again.

 

By pointing out their flaws, for free, you give them an opportunity to fix the problem, and as a business you can take two actions,

 

one thank the person for the loyal support and make an attempt to address your customer's concerns

 

or

 

two dont care and do your best to suppress their opinion and act like they are in the minority.

 

The issue of mod or not isnt what concerns me, the issue of how the react to being shown their own flaws, does concern me....

[Kanuki]

actually Jagex should applaud people like Jiblix. He is helping them to improve their product. If someone bought an iphone and posted a youtube video pointing out the flaws of the phone, that person has done the work for Apple for zero cost and they can now fix the problem that they didnt hve to spend any R&D expense to find.

 

But that relies on the premise that the company cares to make their product better....

 

Being a customer and purchasing a product from a company and pointing out its flaws is one thing. You wearing that companies logo which there are several thousand others wearing, I'm sure, and telling others essentially to vote for a different product is a completely different story. Not only are you making your 'team' of logo-wearing volunteers look bad, but your running down the company itself. It would be different if you weren't volunteering for them and had a 'team' of people who are of the same status as you.

 

This wasn't a constructive video, providing opinions on how it can be stopped or detailing the positives.

 

It said they did not deserve to win this year. It did not encourage anyone to vote elsewhere.

[brad1431]

either way, the correct way to handle the situation would be to engage the person and try to address their concerns because as a pmod he is close to the game and the other players and may have a unique knowledge of the gameplay problems that someone sitting in a board room starting at a monthly P&L trend, does not....

[Kimberly]

This wasn't a constructive video, providing opinions on how it can be stopped or detailing the positives.

 

I don't think the average person can give their opinions on how to stop a problem so massive. Everyone does it. The solution that the average person comes up with gets torn to shreds in a debate. And right now, there aren't a whole lot of positives with the botting situation that can be called upon in order to be 'constructive'.

 

It's really like all the average player can do is vent their frustrations. (Though I understand your point that Jiblix took it too far.)

 

Jagex is hiding any posts that mention voting for any other game. They've hidden a handful of mine that say nothing negative about RuneScape and positive things about Bejeweled 3.

 

Posts like that are stirring a pot though, intended or not. It's a mob mentality. In any other circumstances, I'd like hope that in the right board on the RSOF (probably Off-topic or as close to it as they have over there) a post like that would be permitted.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Jagex is hiding any posts that mention voting for any other game. They've hidden a handful of mine that say nothing negative about RuneScape and positive things about Bejeweled 3.

 

Posts like that are stirring a pot though, intended or not. It's a mob mentality. In any other circumstances, I'd like hope that in the right board on the RSOF (probably Off-topic or as close to it as they have over there) a post like that would be permitted.

Though that said, doesn't it risk devaluing the award when negative criticism from anyone affiliated with the company is actively stamped out, any mention of the other candidates is apparently censored, and the company itself pines for attention by asking people to vote on its behalf, including people who haven't played the free version of the game in donkey's years?

 

This award has become more synonymous with a high school election (read: popularity contest) than a commendation for good games design.

[brad1431]

they dont care, they want to win the award to try to get more people to play F2P with hopes of enticing those people to eventually pay. Maybe they could offer P2P to be bot free to try to convert F2P to P2P

[strilmus]

I'm starting to think that it's not even about getting new players anymore...at least, not in a meaningful way.

 

They're trying to use the award to validate the company as a whole, and to show others in the industry that yes, they are a "legitimate player" in the market for consecutive years. Stuff like that is intended to bolster their stock values.

 

And to them, it doesn't really matter how it happens.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

I never said the botting videos were anti-Jagex, I said his campaign to convince others not to vote was.

 

What campaign? Are you talking about the swell of fanbois that took a perfectly sane message, and turned it into something that it shouldn't have been?

 

I don't think his de-modding was anything to do with his bot videos, I think it was to do with his drive to convince others not to vote, hate having to repeat myself..

It is his opinion & one he is free to express, but surely Jagex can't be seen to allow their moderators to be belittling them, to demod him was a little harsh, but not unexpected.

 

Prove that he implicitly convinced others not to vote for Jagex. I'll happily rescind this point if you find evidence of it, since I sure can't.

 

As for him being demodded - I will say it's unexpected, for the simple fact that a moderator is a player first, and a moderator second. Over the years this has had a variable definition as to what a "player" could do - and what constituted unmodly behavior. However, voicing one's opinion and/or saying "I won't support Jagex in this case for these [legitimate] reasons" isn't unmodly to any normal passerby.

 

It's more indicative of a restrictive government that wants to stifle any opposers to it.

 

[Aside] Had he not been demodded, would this have received nearly any of the same attention that it has? I think not.

 

 

Edit:

 

And just to add, he went a little further than just expressing his opinion, he was asking and telling others not to vote. It was defiantly more than just an opinion & more than just that one video that tipped it over the edge. I think he's right about f2p is really bad, but I mean you can just as easy make a video showing RuneScape empty as you can full of bots. To many people these days complain about everything, never happy unless they have a complaint. We are all aware there is a bot problem on RuneScape, but it's not quite as bad as his video makes it out to be, if you didn't know anything about RuneScape you'd think every server was like that on every world all the time.

 

Don't worry, when we go to RuneFest in October we will be logging onto a different f2p world each & then asking the Jagex staff face to face if this is acceptable.

 

I look forward to seeing evidence of him asking and telling others not to vote. I'm a man of my word; I'll totally back off if you can find any. But if not, let's move past that point.

[strilmus]

From what I've seen from the video, his message is more of a statement that asks you to consider the reasons and circumstances before voting, rather than outright saying "don't vote for Jagex". Compare to "should you vote for Jagex?"

 

However, considering how much Jagex appears to be suppressing any kind of opinion that doesn't favor them, it's not likely that we'll get a fair response anytime soon.

[pulli23]

actually Jagex should applaud people like Jiblix. He is helping them to improve their product. If someone bought an iphone and posted a youtube video pointing out the flaws of the phone, that person has done the work for Apple for zero cost and they can now fix the problem that they didnt hve to spend any R&D expense to find.

 

But that relies on the premise that the company cares to make their product better....

 

Being a customer and purchasing a product from a company and pointing out its flaws is one thing. You wearing that companies logo which there are several thousand others wearing, I'm sure, and telling others essentially to vote for a different product is a completely different story. Not only are you making your 'team' of logo-wearing volunteers look bad, but your running down the company itself. It would be different if you weren't volunteering for them and had a 'team' of people who are of the same status as you.

 

This wasn't a constructive video, providing opinions on how it can be stopped or detailing the positives.

I'm an moderator at the official forums from yoyogames: yet I've critised yoyogames many, many times (for their lack of updates). I still was promoted to moderator as I was also helping the community a lot.

 

Those 2 things can be completely seperate.

[Kimberly]

Though that said, doesn't it risk devaluing the award when negative criticism from anyone affiliated with the company is actively stamped out, any mention of the other candidates is apparently censored, and the company itself pines for attention by asking people to vote on its behalf, including people who haven't played the free version of the game in donkey's years?

 

Yup, it does. We can hope that by doing so they're trying to make it a pleasant environment for the users who don't give a rat's ass about the Joystick and are just there for the community...but who knows. It's easier to believe the negative than the positive. Doubtless the forum mods hiding the post are only going from instruction given to them in their job guidelines, and the community managers going from the guys above them. Too many tangled puppet strings to find out WHY, which is infuriating.

 

I'm an moderator at the official forums from yoyogames: yet I've critised yoyogames many, many times (for their lack of updates). I still was promoted to moderator as I was also helping the community a lot.

 

Those 2 things can be completely seperate.

 

Not in this sort of environment.

[The_Gabe]

Though that said, doesn't it risk devaluing the award when negative criticism from anyone affiliated with the company is actively stamped out, any mention of the other candidates is apparently censored, and the company itself pines for attention by asking people to vote on its behalf, including people who haven't played the free version of the game in donkey's years?

 

Yup, it does. We can hope that by doing so they're trying to make it a pleasant environment for the users who don't give a rat's ass about the Joystick and are just there for the community...but who knows. It's easier to believe the negative than the positive. Doubtless the forum mods hiding the post are only going from instruction given to them in their job guidelines, and the community managers going from the guys above them. Too many tangled puppet strings to find out WHY, which is infuriating.

 

I'm an moderator at the official forums from yoyogames: yet I've critised yoyogames many, many times (for their lack of updates). I still was promoted to moderator as I was also helping the community a lot.

 

Those 2 things can be completely seperate.

 

Not in this sort of environment.

 

Why is this environment any different?

[Kimberly]

Why is this environment any different?

 

One is a multimillion dollar business for an MMORPG that depends on the satisfaction of its userbase versus a community for a group of coders working with a beginner-to-intermediate game design tool.

[The_Gabe]

Why is this environment any different?

 

One is a multimillion dollar business for an MMORPG that depends on the satisfaction of its userbase versus a community for a group of coders working with a beginner-to-intermediate game design tool.

 

It's a forum that revolve around a game. Still the same thing.

[Kimberly]

Why is this environment any different?

 

One is a multimillion dollar business for an MMORPG that depends on the satisfaction of its userbase versus a community for a group of coders working with a beginner-to-intermediate game design tool.

 

It's a forum that revolve around a game. Still the same thing.

 

Not in how an area operates and the standards it maintains. If you haven't seen the many ways a community can be run it's harder to understand, I guess. But they're not the same.

[pulli23]

Why is this environment any different?

 

One is a multimillion dollar business for an MMORPG that depends on the satisfaction of its userbase versus a community for a group of coders working with a beginner-to-intermediate game design tool.

 

It's a forum that revolve around a game. Still the same thing.

 

Not in how an area operates and the standards it maintains. If you haven't seen the many ways a community can be run it's harder to understand, I guess. But they're not the same.

Sure they might be different: but devoicing critics -even from representatives- is no way to handle it. Especially when the critics aren't that weird, and shared by thousands, probably the majority of the customers.

[lordkafei]

Why is this environment any different?

 

One is a multimillion dollar business for an MMORPG that depends on the satisfaction of its userbase versus a community for a group of coders working with a beginner-to-intermediate game design tool.

 

It's a forum that revolve around a game. Still the same thing.

 

Not in how an area operates and the standards it maintains. If you haven't seen the many ways a community can be run it's harder to understand, I guess. But they're not the same.

Sure they might be different: but devoicing critics -even from representatives- is no way to handle it. Especially when the critics aren't that weird, and shared by thousands, probably the majority of the customers.

 

 

Jiblix should be thankful that he is learning this lesson at no expense. Had he actually been in the employ of Jagex, he'd have likely lost his means of support as well. But it's really not any different at other companies - you can't expect to badmouth your employers in a public venue and at the same time expect your relationship with said company to stay the same. I don't think Jagex was at all out of line to demod in this case.

 

The taking down of YouTube videos under the guise of copyright, however, is shameful. There is indeed the concept of fair use and it should be respected. There are no trade secrets being passed here, no intellectual property being devalued. The video is simply flat-out embarassing to Jagex and they don't like it, nor do they like to admit it.

[91soldin91]

You guys are saying that's the fastest way to make a company hated and they should of dealt with it internally but I'm sorry, that's a load of garbage. If something is threatening you, especially in business, and you have the power to get rid of it, you get rid of it. Unless you want to make your company look like the victim, which is a while another issues, you eliminate threats. Jagex had every right to get rid of this guy and their move is a correct one and something I probably would also do. Get rid of the guy, and make sure everyone knows less people stand up to you. Dictation 101 right there people.

In 'getting rid' of the threat, they've given this guy more momentum than he could ever have wished for by himself. If you're seen to be the aggressor, you always come off second-best in PR.

 

Counterproductive 101 right there.

 

This whole thing is a perfect example of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

[PoultryChamp]

Wasn't too thrilled about this and I've voiced my concerns.

[Ginger_Warrior]

Jiblix should be thankful that he is learning this lesson at no expense. Had he actually been in the employ of Jagex, he'd have likely lost his means of support as well. But it's really not any different at other companies - you can't expect to badmouth your employers in a public venue and at the same time expect your relationship with said company to stay the same. I don't think Jagex was at all out of line to demod in this case.

Except that he wasn't an employee. For anyone who's ever done voluntary work, it's made quite explicit on induction that volunteering for a company or organisation is different to being employed by them. Frankly, if a volunteer was banging down the door about something that's gone seriously wrong with the company, that's a better reaction than sitting quiet and towing the party line if you give a damn about the company's future.

 

I'm not saying Jagex were in the wrong here. They could replace Jiblix with [bleep] Turpin and it wouldn't make any difference--they can do what they like within the law. But as a company, you are always looking for feedback on the quality of your products, and if you're just going to take the positive, then it defeats the whole point of the exercise.

 

If Jagex in this instance had spent more time dealing with the problem than censoring personal opinion with dubious copyright claims, there might just be a few less of them hanging around.

[Goatmeal]

One is a multimillion dollar business for an MMORPG that depends on the satisfaction of its userbase

But in that same respect, as a business, they have nothing to gain by silencing the dissatisfaction of its userbase. It may help their "image" and, in turn, draw in new customers, but it doesn't fix anything and those new customers are soon to find themselves among a dissatisfied community regardless.

 

The key here is not to ignore the issues and silence the nay-sayers. They need to accept the criticisms and strive to improve the quality of their game.

 

If they want a userbase that has nothing but nice things to say about them, that's something that needs to be earned - Not censored to save face.

[Noobmage]

Everyone I know is annoyed by bots, nobody is quitting because of them

[Star_Fox]

Everyone I know is annoyed by bots, nobody is quitting because of them

 

 

I've given up on slayer because of them but that also lead me to taking a break from Runescape.

 

Went to the main Golden Joysticks website and found Runescape in the list of "what people are voting on now."

Didn't find or see League of Legends anywhere. Runescape is also the only Free-to-play game on that list.

 

So I guess Runescape is going to win yet again. :rolleyes: Anyone know if Golden Joysticks can withdraw awards for

deceiving voters?

[SwreeTak]

Everyone I know is annoyed by bots, nobody is quitting because of them

 

Ding Ding Ding. Same with updates like these in a week or two no one will care again. This is just another climbing boots instance where everyone claims they "lost respect for Jagex" again and have amnesia afterwords.

 

I have to say that I agree. Right now there's quite a lot of people critizing Jagex, and even though I agree that they need to take more action against bots and stop with silly updates like the last couple of ones, I still believe they do quite a good work.

[Aceethan]

Mod edit: removed quote of a bad post.

I appreciate the insult to my intelligence.... very constructive thought there. But honestly, I still think they should have did what they did, although perhaps a bit more secretly as yes, there was a lot of publicity.

 

I guarantee the video would have gotten as popular as it is now if Jagex hadn't done anything, yes it would have taken weeks instead of days, but it would have happened. I'm guessing Jagex knew this and figured it would be more of a victory for them if they got rid of the guy.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Kimberly