Well Known RWT'rs banned.

[n64jive]

Stopping bots is a nice idea, but in practice is very much not trivial. Jagex can't just "stop bots" like everyone claims/wants. They can break bots for a period of time (we've seen this) they can attempt new detections and so forth. However none of this will ever stop bots, because fundamentally all of these can be worked around.

 

As someone with a degree in computer engineering, I feel Jagex can stop bots. Their bot-watch is the right method, and I have been preaching this for years. Automate the bot detection process and you will stop the vast majority of bots, which is really what matters.

 

As for people who drop real life money to be good at runescape...Money doesn't grow on trees. They were able to obtain it somehow...Just because they didn't put the time in in-game, doesn't mean they didn't put that time in.

 

Sorry, but if little johnny can spend his weekend mowing lawns instead of a month of weekends killing green dragons, I don't care if little johnny buys gold. Life's not fair, but runescape never was either. How was it fair, that I was able to just run around lumbridge and pick up xmas crackers, hoard those, and later be able to buy any skill I pleased. I bet you never got that opportunity.

 

Quit trying act like there is something noble about working hard at runescape. I only level up my skills because there is content I want access to. There is no sense of achievement. There are plenty more satisfying things in this world that are more impressive than runescape.

[Merre]

Stopping bots is a nice idea, but in practice is very much not trivial. Jagex can't just "stop bots" like everyone claims/wants. They can break bots for a period of time (we've seen this) they can attempt new detections and so forth. However none of this will ever stop bots, because fundamentally all of these can be worked around.

 

Although I'm not a coder or scripter and have no clue how bots are created, I can only imagine they have to be programmed in advance and don't react human-like when something unsuspected comes up.

That's also the reason why I don't understand they can't make randoms that are actually random. Nothing graphically 'high tech' but just a random thing popping up a few times a day on a random moment.

Something like 'what item is this?', but then with a word or figure or whatever. Kinda like the captcha, but RS related. And when you solve it, you get a random lowvalue item or the XP lamp as we knew it from randoms. It would bother real players alot less than being tele'd out and having to run through a maze or picking up and replacing coffins... If you fail at solving the random, it should tele you to a 'bot prison' where they let you solve another puzzle. If you get stuck or keep screwing up it's kinda obvious you aren't human... Dunno, I think that's a way to stop bots?

[n64jive]

Stopping bots is a nice idea, but in practice is very much not trivial. Jagex can't just "stop bots" like everyone claims/wants. They can break bots for a period of time (we've seen this) they can attempt new detections and so forth. However none of this will ever stop bots, because fundamentally all of these can be worked around.

 

Although I'm not a coder or scripter and have no clue how bots are created, I can only imagine they have to be programmed in advance and don't react human-like when something unsuspected comes up.

That's also the reason why I don't understand they can't make randoms that are actually random. Nothing graphically 'high tech' but just a random thing popping up a few times a day on a random moment.

Something like 'what item is this?', but then with a word or figure or whatever. Kinda like the captcha, but RS related. And when you solve it, you get a random lowvalue item or the XP lamp as we knew it from randoms. It would bother real players alot less than being tele'd out and having to run through a maze or picking up and replacing coffins... If you fail at solving the random, it should tele you to a 'bot prison' where they let you solve another puzzle. If you get stuck or keep screwing up it's kinda obvious you aren't human... Dunno, I think that's a way to stop bots?

 

They had captcha's back in classic, and they weren't well received. There are a lot of traits, however, that are obvious with bots. The most popular bot scripts all behave the same way. The fact that I am able to detect which rs players are botting, and which are legit, just by glancing at my screen for a few seconds tells you that Jagex should be able to do the same. I think with Jacmob at the helm of this project, bot-watch will work. Bots will have to become smarter, but if botwatch is well designed, it will learn as the bots become smarter as well.

 

I really don't think it should be too difficult. Hell, even keeping track of simple stats like percentage of day logged in. For instance, accounts that continuously log in for over 90% of the day for many days at a time. Seems like it is pretty obvious this person is a bot. And the amount of real players that would do something similar is small, therefor it seems like false positives would be low risk as well. And that is just a simple metric. Heat mapping clicking patterns and other behavioral detection wouldn't be to difficult as well.

[chenw]

The fact that I am able to detect which rs players are botting, and which are legit, just by glancing at my screen for a few seconds tells you that Jagex should be able to do the same.

 

1. This is what you claim, but you have absolutely no idea whether the person is TRULY botting or not. Looks are not everything, sure, one character might act bot like, and another might act legit like, when it in reality may be the other way round.

 

2. The other problem is that you are able to spot a bot after a few seconds glancing at the screen. Jagex do not have thousands of people 'glancing' at the screen continuously with your 'skill' to spot the bots, so they would have to do it from the back end (IE coding), which is completely different thing to 'glancing' a behaviour of the character. One do not automatically translate into the other.

[Piu]

I wonder if 10 people 'glancing' on their screens, teleporting from each hot spot to another, each world, for a usual 8 working hours a day, would actually be more effective than botwatch?

[Ginger_Warrior]

The salaries alone would probably set Jagex back about quarter of a million straight off the bat, and we've not even begun to talk about company benefits or training (etc.). It probably would be more effective, although there'd be practical issues around it, but even if you resolved them, you can understand why Jagex might look for cheaper alternatives. Especially when, these days, it's not just "Jagex", it's "Jagex plus all the people that pump money in and expect returns from it."

[Piu]

In most cases, gold farmers chargeback on Jagex once the account is banned.

 

That or they use hacked accounts, which both ultimately come to the same outcome with Jagex losing in money.

 

[qfc]291-292-13-63573822[/qfc]

Edited October 30, 2012 by Leik
Added QFC

[Blyaunte]

The salaries alone would probably set Jagex back about quarter of a million straight off the bat, and we've not even begun to talk about company benefits or training (etc.). It probably would be more effective, although there'd be practical issues around it, but even if you resolved them, you can understand why Jagex might look for cheaper alternatives. Especially when, these days, it's not just "Jagex", it's "Jagex plus all the people that pump money in and expect returns from it."

 

 

Here is, of course, one of the ways that “one person's RWT’ing negatively affects the game”.

 

Inasmuch as Jagex has determined that RWT is against the rules, and therefore has undertaken to employ staff and/or devote time, money and other resources to thwart such individuals from conducting RWT, then that staff and those resources are tied up doing prevention, and not spent or otherwise devoted to game improvements or other more useful tasks.

 

Hell, for that matter, if you want proof that RWT negatively affects the game, I got two words for you: “trade limits”.

 

‘Nuff said …

[Platinum_Myr]

On the issue of money: not all people work the same effort to get the same money. Some people have better opportunities afforded them, some are born in the right place and time. Personally I would prefer my real social status not affect my game status. If everyone had to put equal effort to get equal reward that is different. But no two people have to put the same effort to get the same money, some people have better paying jobs not because they are skilled. (and how far down do you want to allow propagation of wealth and still attribute it to the player?)

 

As for bot detection, yes detection can work. However as the detection evolves so too does the ability of the bot. Jagex might be able to win for a large period of time, but I believe that they can never fully 100% win for the rest of time. Computers and our skill in programming them continues to get better.

 

At some point it might not be worth the effort to create a bot, and maybe jagex can win this way.

 

Captchas don't work. Even if a computer can't solve them, (many captchas are actually *easier* for a computer to solve than an average person!) what they do is screen shot or video if it's moving and offload the captcha to a site that solves it by paying a few pennies for each correct answer. Someone will sit there and solve captchas for money.

 

Pattern detection is great, and it works well for bots which precisely move mouse and click timed perfectly. Most bots get around this by adding in random delays and using pathing algorithms which follow curved paths like a person's.

 

Chat detection might work and it should be much easier to identify adbots, but real bots could simply script pms or clan chat messages. It would be possible.

 

I think bot-watch is the way to go but obviously it isn't working everywhere yet. The real trick is whether it creates false positives as these are much worse from a customer service perspective. But I don't believe that bot-watch can stop automated gaming. I think it might make people not bother to create a bot, but I don't think any technical solution against preventing bots can work forever. If it works enough that it's not economical to create bots that might be a good blow to the bots.

[Ginger_Warrior]

The salaries alone would probably set Jagex back about quarter of a million straight off the bat, and we've not even begun to talk about company benefits or training (etc.). It probably would be more effective, although there'd be practical issues around it, but even if you resolved them, you can understand why Jagex might look for cheaper alternatives. Especially when, these days, it's not just "Jagex", it's "Jagex plus all the people that pump money in and expect returns from it."

 

 

Here is, of course, one of the ways that “one person's RWT’ing negatively affects the game”.

 

Inasmuch as Jagex has determined that RWT is against the rules, and therefore has undertaken to employ staff and/or devote time, money and other resources to thwart such individuals from conducting RWT, then that staff and those resources are tied up doing prevention, and not spent or otherwise devoted to game improvements or other more useful tasks.

 

Hell, for that matter, if you want proof that RWT negatively affects the game, I got two words for you: “trade limits”.

 

‘Nuff said …

... This fallacy, again? We've already established that we're not talking about RWT as though it's against the rules, like it currently is. We know it's against the rules, and Jagex therefore commit some level of resources to fighting it. If RWT wasn't against the rules, Jagex would no longer need to police it. So the question, which I think everyone else here would appreciate you not trying to muddle every five posts, is:

• If RWT was allowed, would there still be negative effects from RWT on other players?
  

Please read the question again, just for the avoidance of any confusion:

• "If RWT was allowed..."
  

And again:

• "...allowed..."
  

[n64jive]

If there is one thing I noticed, there are some members of this forum who are bigots and trying to get them to see the other side of the fence in near impossible...

[Ginger_Warrior]

Nice personal jibe, but I'll take that as meaning you can't find a flaw in my argument otherwise.

 

I can see the other side of the fence, I just don't understand it. Blyaunte said Jagex commited a lot of resources to fighting RWT because it's against the rules. I argued that they no longer would be committing those resources if RWT was not against the rules. If anything, Jagex spending so much time on RWT to the detriment of other parts of RuneScape's development is an argument for becoming more lax on RWT, not more authoritarian.

 

That's not bigotry. That's critical thinking.

[Kimberly]

True but if they were to make it okay to do, they then have the responsibility to ensure that their members can do so in a safe environment. It's not so simple as saying, "Okay, it's legal." The time invested in Bot Watch would still need to be done to maintain the integrity of their game. Then, more dev time would be necessary to "set up" their own take on Diablo's Real World Auction House or something similar.

 

I know you likely understand these things, so I guess I'm just stating the obvious.

[Fallstar]

They spend a lot of time on RWT? Lol'd.

 

They didn't have a single JMod devoted to it previously. WAD and others literally bartered for the price of gp and organized the required details within his CC for the entire time I was there (over 6 months). The evidence was there, and it was blatantly obvious. They only did something after someone made a thread in hlf about it, and it took several weeks for them to actually ban him and the others then.

 

Before that, when was the last time you heard of someone banned for RWT?

[Ginger_Warrior]

True but if they were to make it okay to do, they then have the responsibility to ensure that their members can do so in a safe environment. It's not so simple as saying, "Okay, it's legal." The time invested in Bot Watch would still need to be done to maintain the integrity of their game. Then, more dev time would be necessary to "set up" their own take on Diablo's Real World Auction House or something similar.

 

I know you likely understand these things, so I guess I'm just stating the obvious.

That much I can agree with. Unfettered RWTing would lead the game to oblivion, and place quite a few people in significant danger. I can't say I've managed to keep up to date with D3's RMT Auction House so I can't comment on how successful that's been, or how players reacted to it and what problems they encountered along the way.

 

If I had to plot on a graph titled "Issues about RuneScape that Ginger Warrior is bothered about", RWT really wouldn't come that high compared to other things, but I am generally against RWT when used as a way of gaining advantage over other players (for example, the 'Happy Tickets' on Happy Wars completely ruin what was a very promising game, in my opinion). I'm playing Devil's Advocate, and reminding people that simply pointing out the status quo--that Jagex have spent time on RWT already--is not an argument for that situation to carry on.

[n64jive]

Just to clarify, my post wasn't a response to your post, but rather I was referencing those who agree with Jagex's rules because "They are the rules Jagex has created, therefore I support them regardless", and then proceed to make up arguments against those with different opinions based solely on those beliefs. Also, I wasn't making a personal jab at anyone by calling them a bigot. I am simply stating, that by definition, the responses that are had by those is bigotry.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Next, I understand that when you accept Jagex's ToS, you agree to their rules, etc. But they need to understand that we are the customers. Their total lack of disregard of the community is one of the many factors that make this game's community so terrible. Most of the members got sick of Jagex's antics, and quit.

 

Now to those of you who ask "Why are you still here"...because there are aspects of this game that I still enjoy. But I'm no fanboy, and I'm not going to support Jagex just because I play their game.

 

Any argument for RWT has became invalid once Jagex introduce and continue to push their Squeal Wheel...

[Logdotzip]

updated list

 

Win All Day - banned with 100b [win all day fc]

Stokenut - banned with 5b [fishy fc]

Smokin Mils - banned with #b [smokin mils fc]

Mr J Rune - banned with #b [smokin mils fc]

Pitiful - banned with 20b [fishy fc]

Maxy Pad - banned with 85b [fishy fc]

Cls Product + mules - perm locked / banned with 30b [cls product fc]

Mx799 - banned with 20b [cls product fc]

Joopi - banned with #b [no fc]

Lucky D - perm locked with 30b [fishy fc]

F44 - Perm locked with 13b, appealed, sold, then perm banned [fishy fc]

Jail - Perm locked/banned with 5b [fishy fc]

Pikin is Fun - Perm locked with 55b [fishy fc]

iZinC - Perm locked with 45b [fishy fc]

The WomD - Perm locked with #b [fishy fc]

 

NEW ADDITIONS: from last couple days

 

Smite Yo BGS - permlock/possible reset [fishy fc] (might be 2 week)

Ranginranq91 - permlock/possible reset [fishy fc] (might be 2 week)

Gws2 - permlock [no fc]

[Donnie]

wonder how it feels to lose $10k plus. Must feel like Jagex stole your car

[JeRambo]

More like Jagex taking their car back.

[Logdotzip]

Yeah, pretty sure he still has his nice BMW from his GP endeavors, here's a video he just recently put up.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-hCci3A5CE

[ilovecuttingyews]

More like JaGex taking their car back.

EXACTLY what I was going to say. No matter if you have no issue with how these people gained their GP, the truth is that all Runescape items belong to Jagex. So you have no right to sell it, and Jagex has all the right to take it away if they feel you're not living up to your end of the terms of conditions.

 

Yeah, pretty sure he still has his nice BMW from his GP endeavors, here's a video he just recently put up.

<clip>

This makes me even less likely to believe the claims made earlier in this thread about people using RWT as a means to survive.

[Logdotzip]

More like JaGex taking their car back.

EXACTLY what I was going to say. No matter if you have no issue with how these people gained their GP, the truth is that all Runescape items belong to Jagex. So you have no right to sell it, and Jagex has all the right to take it away if they feel you're not living up to your end of the terms of conditions.

 

Yeah, pretty sure he still has his nice BMW from his GP endeavors, here's a video he just recently put up.

<clip>

This makes me even less likely to believe the claims made earlier in this thread about people using RWT as a means to survive.

 

Well, some do, most just buy cars and shit

[Fallstar]

Smite deserves the reset. Aside from any RWT based ban, he ddos'd people at the duel arena. Good riddance.

[Stev]

More like JaGex taking their car back.

EXACTLY what I was going to say. No matter if you have no issue with how these people gained their GP, the truth is that all Runescape items belong to Jagex. So you have no right to sell it.

"I wasn't selling my gold. I was selling my time taken to collect it."

"Selling funny joke - Comes with free RuneScape account."

 

Sound familiar?

[Mercifull]

But you can't give away something for free you don't legally own either so that wouldn't work as an argument.