TIF is bit over-moderated

[Hobgoblinpie]

Thank your for proving the OP's point.

 

Also well done on undermining your fellow staffs judgement on where a thread should and shouldn't be.

 

By all means go and hide this rant away from your innocent viewers, don't want it being a blight on your garden of eden here.

 

He moved it to the correct forum. I hardly see how that is over-zealous moderation. Do you want to see just one section covering every single board we currently have here? It would be chaos.

 

In regards to the reporting system, moderators cannot possibly look at every single post over every board every single day. The reason emergency service numbers exist is so that if you need help, they will come to you. No-one expects to be followed all the time by a police officer, so I hardly see how you can expect us to do exactly the same. Obviously, when we come across these issues ourselves, we deal with them, but the ability for users to aid moderators is invaluable, in my opinion.

 

Like Tripsis mentioned above, you can debate as much as you want with a moderator, as long as you don't start flaming or personally attacking them. Same goes for any other user. If they are subject to flaming through private messages, they can pass it on to us and we can deal with the situation. Also, if a moderator is the subject of a personal attack, they are not allowed to deal with it themselves. I have had a personal attack before, just after I became a mod, and obviously I did not deal with it. I was however blamed when said person was banned temporarily, despite the fact that the decision had nothing to do with me at all, and I did not have the ability to ban the person.

 

^That last bit isn't supposed to 'big myself up' or whatever, I'm just trying to give an actual example of moderator policy - it's there to stop bias.

[das]

Oh, and yes, i'm still assuming this is a rant. I have no idea how anyone can even think of making a rant into a suggestion thread. That's a stupid idea.

 

 

I have to I smiled at the irony of a post on over-moderation being moved into the "proper" forum. Personally I'd like it in a high traffic forum like general but it does fit here. While the original post may be construed as a rant, I'd love to see this turn into a serious discussion and feedback of how we're doing. It saddens me to see people feel that they cannot constructively provide feedback to a mod for fear of being punished, without feedback, we cannot grow as a community, and as a staff we cannot grow to suit your needs.

 

I'm sure someone will eventually say - The "loudest users" das - will be your troublemakers, trolls and <insert undesirable word here>. That may be partially true to an extent, I do believe that everyone has a right to have there voice heard. as a user, I was banned multiple times and considered a troublemaker of my own accord and i'd like to think that I myself as a loud voice who pressed for change. However it's about HOW you do it and how you present your argument. I've seen some great stuff so far, and hope to see more.

 

I'd counterargue that as far as strictness and over-moderation goes we are more lax than Tip.it has been since perhaps 2003. I'd contend we compete with the 2001-2003 era for laxness. however my opinion is just that - mine, and i'm sure many mods and users may disagree with that.

 

This is a rather large forum ran by volunteers so perfection cannot be be expected, but as a team, we can improve, and i hope this topic can teach us how.

 

I encourage your public critiques and criticisms and yes, name names and use examples if it helps you illustrate a legitimate point that our service to the users could improve. However, please be respectful

 

Example: Darkdude and Cowman do not respond to my pm's. Racheya locked my topic after an admin posted in it - how does that work?

Bad example: Tripsis has a penor and won't make me a sandwich like a good woman!!!@@!!

 

TOGETHER, We can make a forum for the users - by the users. We have to work together, both staff and users and users and staff. I cannot speak for anyone on the staff other than myself, but i'd like to say - I'm commuted to work with you and listen, to seek out change, understanding or compromise and I hope and feel strongly that a large majority of the Administration and staff stands behind me on that commitment.

 

Tip.it used to be known though in it's heyday as a mecca of intellect, intelligent debate and a strong community, now according to users it's not as such, i've heard it from you. i'd like to see it return to that, and i'd like for you to tell me how it can become such again.

[Hegelstad]

I promise you, there are far worse forums converning this issue. On a norwegian forum the moderators (which gangs up) bans me 30 days all the time for a single mistake just because they hate me...

[Hawks]

I think the staff does a great job, considering there are many thousands of posts to sort through, and then you have to read them in context to determine if they are contributing or not. I'd rather have it be under moderated than over. And while I can't really speak for the RuneScape discussion boards (I tend to stay in the general discussions, T&C, the gallery, OT, etc) in OT and the other forums I haven't anything I find offensive or that should have been removed; therefore, they're doing their job.

 

So here are some cookies for everybody plus some sour skittles for Tripsis since I know she likes them:

[Grimy_Bunyip]

I think the staff does a great job, considering there are many thousands of posts to sort through, and then you have to read them in context to determine if they are contributing or not. I'd rather have it be under moderated than over. And while I can't really speak for the RuneScape discussion boards (I tend to stay in the general discussions, T&C, the gallery, OT, etc) in OT and the other forums I haven't anything I find offensive or that should have been removed; therefore, they're doing their job.

 

So here are some cookies for everybody plus some sour skittles for Tripsis since I know she likes them:

everybody that's been posting here with complaints, + the few people defending the mods such as all is great, are runescape discussion board frequenters.

[Hawks]

everybody that's been posting here with complaints, that and all is great, are runescape discussion board frequenters.

 

Then feel free to do as the staff that's been posting in this thread has been saying, and report the stuff you find annoying/offensive in RS general discussion. If they don't catch it, it'll run rampant. I am not prone to enjoying discussion about RS in general anyway, maybe because of the crowd that plays it at this point in time. I pop in every once in a while and only see complaints on the huge stickies that I'm not a fan of anyway.

 

I do think that you need to 'build up' or be here longer to be less intimidated by the staff... I've been here since what, 2006? And only maybe into 2009 did I feel comfortable PMing a mod. Getting involved with the community and forums helps to make you less 'scared' of staff and realize they're just real people like you, with a bit more responsibility.

 

I still believe the staff does as best of a job as they can, dealing with a wide range of users who are not necessarily mature enough to express themselves well, and obviously dealing with those who exist only to bother others (ie trolls).

[Fairness]

Although I agree with many of the points brought up here against the TIF mods/admins, I don't feel like elaborating right now. The one point I would like is that moving a thread should actually increase traffic, because the thread is now visible in the Rants forum and in the community feedback forum. (Just to that guy who was complaining that the mods are hiding the truth.)

[Grimy_Bunyip]

everybody that's been posting here with complaints, that and all is great, are runescape discussion board frequenters.

 

Then feel free to do as the staff that's been posting in this thread has been saying, and report the stuff you find annoying/offensive in RS general discussion. If they don't catch it, it'll run rampant. I am not prone to enjoying discussion about RS in general anyway, maybe because of the crowd that plays it at this point in time. I pop in every once in a while and only see complaints on the huge stickies that I'm not a fan of anyway.

 

I do think that you need to 'build up' or be here longer to be less intimidated by the staff... I've been here since what, 2006? And only maybe into 2009 did I feel comfortable PMing a mod. Getting involved with the community and forums helps to make you less 'scared' of staff and realize they're just real people like you, with a bit more responsibility.

 

I still believe the staff does as best of a job as they can, dealing with a wide range of users who are not necessarily mature enough to express themselves well, and obviously dealing with those who exist only to bother others (ie trolls).

I'm sorry but you just don't understand the situation, as you've probably never witness a mod explicitly insult someone, or ban someone for accusing one of their friends of cheating in RS.

These complaints are hardly raised without appropriate precedence.

Like I said, we're working on dealing with the situation in our own way.

There's no need for you to lecture me on how to use the report button.

The grievances I am eluding to are very specific, and involve very specific moderators that frequent the runescape boards.

And we are currently planning to deal with them in a responsible fashion, as the methods you have described have never worked in the past.

 

I respect your pride as a moderator, but like I said. It's specific, it's being dealt with, and the solution is not going to be anything as simple as what you have proposed.

[Kimberly]

So wait, are we even discussing the same thing anymore? Half of this seems to be a spat between users who frequent that black abyss known as the pictures thread, which should be nuked to kingdom come anyway...

[Obtaurian]

So wait, are we even discussing the same thing anymore? Half of this seems to be a spat between users who frequent that black abyss known as the pictures thread, which should be nuked to kingdom come anyway...

 

It doesn't have anything to do with the pictures thread.

[obfuscator]

The reason we move threads is to keep things organized. If we were just to leave threads in whatever forum they originated in for traffic reasons, we might as well just have one huge forum.

 

Generally speaking we do leave a shadow topic in the forum we move from though so any traffic from that forum can be redirected..

[Triquos]

I think it's perfect

[Rainy_Day]

I'm sorry but you just don't understand the situation, as you've probably never witness a mod explicitly insult someone, or ban someone for accusing one of their friends of cheating in RS.

These complaints are hardly raised without appropriate precedence.

I would love for that to be evidenced, to be honest, as in all my time as a moderator/admin on Tip.It, I'm yet to hear of a case where a moderator has explicitly insulted somebody on the forums.

[Danqazmlp]

 

I'm sorry but you just don't understand the situation, as you've probably never witness a mod explicitly insult someone, or ban someone for accusing one of their friends of cheating in RS.

 

Accusing anybody of cheating will be removed and warnings sent for it, friend of a moderator or not. I do not know of the instance you are alluding too and have never heard of it, but if somebody was banned for accusing another of cheating, it would have been a coincidence if a friend of a moderator was involved.

[Grimy_Bunyip]

 

I'm sorry but you just don't understand the situation, as you've probably never witness a mod explicitly insult someone, or ban someone for accusing one of their friends of cheating in RS.

 

Accusing anybody of cheating will be removed and warnings sent for it, friend of a moderator or not. I do not know of the instance you are alluding too and have never heard of it, but if somebody was banned for accusing another of cheating, it would have been a coincidence if a friend of a moderator was involved.

Like I said already, the issues I mentioned are in the process of being discussed, as some of the matters are somewhat private.

And through the appropriate channels (a private discussion has been created on TIF to discuss it)

If you want to talk to me about this, I'll see you in the appropriate channels Danq.

This thread can be locked.

[obfuscator]

Well, I think we're going to leave it open if anyone has complaints.

 

Feel free to post, we really do want your input...as das said, this should be a forum for the users, by the users.

[Assume Nothing]

I think it's highly circumstantial. I mean, when a user creates useless topics, yet not 'technically' breaking the rules, it's frustrating for users to see the threads having higher user traffic than legitimate threads that discuss the issues with today's RuneScape, and politics in Off-Topic for that matter.

 

Sometimes the mods are a little too lax, such as when Undo made topics about Big N Tasty being taken off the menu (which isn't really a discussion), and nerfing the sling (which seemed quite nonsensical, as it's already a very weak weapon). The topics weren't locked for a good 4-5 pages, but it was eventually locked. The thread simply took up spaces where real discussions should actually be.

 

On the other hand, modding is a little heavy handed. As far as I'm aware, I am only one ban off a permanent ban, and that's for offenses a year ago. I believe there should be a system like RuneScape, where you can view your 'black marks', and offenses expire after a certain time (with some exceptions that could be implemented). I don't think it's fair that I should be banned if I posted something that could be perceived as flame, if my last offense was at least a year old.

 

I agree with Grimy - The appeals system is flawed. Users are sometimes left 'trapped', such as if the moderator dealing with the situation simply refuses to answer pm's, or taking a 'brick wall' stance, instead of trying to solve the issue.

 

Question for Mods: So, how is the moderation run here? Do you assume guilty until proven innocent, or the opposite stance? And why?

 

Uh - I'm running out of time. I'll edit this post a little later.

[obfuscator]

Well like real life, it's innocent until proven guilty. We never take any action against anyone unless we have the evidence here. For example, we won't ban anyone for bottom or scamming unless we can see evidence of it here.

 

As for the offenses, we do take into account the amount of time between offenses. Of course, they never completely go away, but generally we try to see if people have changed if a lot of time has elapsed between warnings.

[tripsis]

I agree with Grimy - The appeals system is flawed. Users are sometimes left 'trapped', such as if the moderator dealing with the situation simply refuses to answer pm's, or taking a 'brick wall' stance, instead of trying to solve the issue.

If the moderator refuses to answer PMs you are always welcome to PM an administrator. When talking to a moderator, if you are unable to come to a solution that you are happy with you are again welcome to PM an administrator with your complaints. You're not stuck with one moderator to deal with. You may always PM an administrator for a second opinion. This is particularly important if the moderator isn't answering PMs, as that should not be happening.

[Danqazmlp]

Question for Mods: So, how is the moderation run here? Do you assume guilty until proven innocent, or the opposite stance? And why?

 

I can't really comment on the rest, but it's kind of hard to sum it up into one of those categories.

 

A lot of the way we work is detailed here http://forum.tip.it/topic/277517-moderator-spotlight/

 

Basically if there is an offence reported, and we as the moderator who sees the report thinks that yes, an offence has happened, they will take the appropriate action. A thread in the wrong forum will be moved, a thread which has derailed into flames will usually lead to moderators sending warnings to those who instigated it and/or prolonged it etc. We then have a forum in which every piece of communication between a moderator and a forum user is posted. For example, if I were to be warned for flaming and it was my first offence, there would be a topic created titled something along the lines of "Danqazmlp - Flames". It would then have a link to my profile, a link to the posts in question (Which are all moved to a forum specifically for posts and threads linked to in these threads) and a copy of the warning sent to the user. If it were my second offence, there would already be a thread for me, which would contain my first offence. The new post in it would then contain all of the above except the link to my profile as it would already be in the first post on the thread. This means that we can easily see any history a forum user has, any communications with moderators or administrators and any bans that may have occurred. In some cases where a warning isn't taken but a user may have done something bad, that may also be noted such as "Danqazmlp got in a flame war today 'link here'"

 

This is often why a 'clean' forum user can often get banned without looking like they have done anything as all the posts which we deem against the rules will always be removed to our evidence forum.

 

On appeals, there is a specific forum where appeals go to. a new appeal will create a new topic with everything given in it, all the information and all the information on the account in question, including a link to their topic of warnings if needed (Appeals for things such as forgotten passwords go to the same area). These topics are then viewable by the administration team and they will then decide whether to accept or deny the appeal once they have come to a decision. Sometimes these appeals can be open for a while due to a split decision or more evidence being gathered. This allows them to come to an informed decision on the matter.

[Jehosaphat]

Well, the Falador Tavern moderators seem to be doing their job pretty well. And I tend to stay away from posting in most of the rest of the forum, so... good job, I guess?

[pal2002]

Well, I certainly had no intention my random little rant to get so much attention that it gets a board announcement, but I'm certainly very impressed by you guys actually putting together this whole 'evaluate the moderation' thing. This is the difference right here between TIF and what's left of RSOF - you guys actually care :D And that makes me just bit happy inside that such a community still exists for RS.

 

My point when I made the thread, is that you guys clearly care a lot about the community and its rules, but sometimes you can care a bit too much. If you are anything like a forum surfer like me, you know that most readers will scan the titles, skim whatever threads sound interesting, and tend to skip giant blocks of text or pages of pages of quoted text blocks back and forth. What I find many times is I read the first few posts of a thread and find it interesting just to find the locked button where the reply button is. I'm sure there is some reason for you guys to have locked the thread - but do realize that skimmers/lurkers like me aren't gonna read the 5 pages of text of whatever violated the rule anyways or participate in it - I think in such a case it'd be better for the moderator to just put in a warning, delete whatever offensive posts you guys deem, and let the thread live. Locking is a rather harsh thing, what I consider to be same to censoring a free discussion.

 

Anyways, chillax guys - I'll totally admit I didn't read the last 3 pages at all - and hence sort of my point, that I'm not involved in most whatever happened before me or after me - the thread creator, a random replyer, or any potential readers for when the thread stays afloat shouldn't be punished for something they didn't write or even want to read.

[jasignhagj]

I must say that the moderation in the General Discussion boards is far better than the moderation in the RS boards, but that also might reflect the people who post there.

[Adam007]

I think mods should make more of an effort to delete posts that are considered spam in that they have no point or substance. Like on one hand the mods here can sometimes be too strict, but other times they're way too relaxed!

[The Observer]

My point when I made the thread, is that you guys clearly care a lot about the community and its rules, but sometimes you can care a bit too much. If you are anything like a forum surfer like me, you know that most readers will scan the titles, skim whatever threads sound interesting, and tend to skip giant blocks of text or pages of pages of quoted text blocks back and forth. What I find many times is I read the first few posts of a thread and find it interesting just to find the locked button where the reply button is. I'm sure there is some reason for you guys to have locked the thread - but do realize that skimmers/lurkers like me aren't gonna read the 5 pages of text of whatever violated the rule anyways or participate in it - I think in such a case it'd be better for the moderator to just put in a warning, delete whatever offensive posts you guys deem, and let the thread live. Locking is a rather harsh thing, what I consider to be same to censoring a free discussion.

 

Well, the posters have changed quite a lot compared to a while back. A lot of the old posters left who made it a great place to be and they were replaced by trolls and other people who don't exactly create the best atmosphere. The reason why these posts are seen at all shows the relaxed moderation of Tip it because all posts that are deemed offensive are split off/moved away to hidden areas of the boards. So, they would be hidden if so. If it got any more relaxed, then there would be even more problems tbh.