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Tip.it Times Presents: A Time of War


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Brilliant article and I agree 100%

 

 

 

It's so one-sided I train combat in order to fund other skills and it shouldn't be like that!

 

Same here, and its not right.

 

 

 

Hopefully the pvp introduction will help skillers iut a bit, the prices of pots, runes and food should go up so people with high herblore, runecrafting, fishing and cooking should beneifit.

 

 

 

A centralised market has been a blessing and a curse for Rs, any item at the palm of your hand, the availabilty both helps and hinders the economy. Thinks are, in a way, to easy to buy and so resources which were hard to get a hold of prices seem to decrease.

 

 

 

As for "Are skillers dying out?", i think its a little to early to tell but certainly seems the best way to make money atm is through combat, which seems a bit....illogical. It used to be you skilled to buy better equipment for combat but now it seems you do combat to get enough money to skill, not a good gameplay dynamic imo.

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I wasn't around before they originally removed PvP, so I didn't see any of the market back then. But I've definitely always thought it was a very strange economy where the raw materials were almost universally more expensive than crafted/smithed/fletched/whatnot goods.

 

 

 

I would expect that in lower levels where you don't have the skill to make an item that isn't easily found killing a low level monster, but I would have expected the scales to start tipping towards the player as their skill level got higher, and so far in Runescape I haven't seen that. I raise my skills at the expense of making money, and being a gatherer is far more profitable.

 

 

 

I've always been given the impression that WC/Fletch is *the* way to make money. My farming is less than my wc/fletch, and I've made far far more money on Farming.

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Good article...

 

 

 

Is there a skill that still makes good money?

 

 

 

Any gathering skill (primary) still does, mining, woodcutting, fishing being the main 3. Any making skill (secondary skill) does not.

 

 

 

Not technically correct. Runecrafting still makes money, just less than before. Also, a few fletching methods can make money/lots of junk, same with smithing (cannonballs.) There are probably other examples too, but this is just off the top of my head.

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A good article, but I'm not sure I agree with the central premise, for two reasons.

 

 

 

First, I don't see the game as having *shifted* towards a combat orientation -- while admittedly I've only played for three years, in my mind it has always *been* combat oriented, with non-combat skills there to supplement and support combat.

 

 

 

Second, I don't agree with the claim that combat is the only way to earn money on a large scale. Sure, you can't "get rich quick" with non-combat skills the way you can with combat. But you can often earn money more consistently over time with non-combat methods.

 

 

 

The problem with making money via non-combat skills is simple market dynamics. Whenever a new method arises that can be exploited to earn money, enough people move into it until the profit is squeezed out. The core of this problem was and still is the fact that people are willing to make less money, or even lose money, to get XP. Jagex can counter this by putting more methods in the game (minigames, etc) that let you train skills without producing "output".

 

 

 

But non-combat skills will never be big money makers unless more randomness is put into them, just as exists with combat.

Qeltar, aka Charles Kozierok

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But I've definitely always thought it was a very strange economy where the raw materials were almost universally more expensive than crafted/smithed/fletched/whatnot goods.

 

 

The reason is XP.

 

 

 

There are examples where the raw materials are worth less than the finished products, sometimes enough to earn decent $ at it. These are the cases where you don't get good XP for the trasnformation.

 

 

I've always been given the impression that WC/Fletch is *the* way to make money. My farming is less than my wc/fletch, and I've made far far more money on Farming.

 

 

 

Woodcutting is a decent money maker. There is virtually no money in Fletching -- it is the most overrated "money skill" in the game.

Qeltar, aka Charles Kozierok

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Featuring the Ultimate Guide to Dungeoneering -- everything you need to know to get the most of the new skill!

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i liked the read. God wars and the trade thing didnt really affect me.

 

 

 

The only way the trade thing affected me:

 

 

 

I was gonna get all my nats from a freind.

 

 

 

couldnt so i moved on.

 

 

 

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I'm kind of laughing at the 'one word post' and the 'reserved' thing, way too funny, woot go Tip.It's pride & respectfulness!

 

 

 

Anyways I enjoyed the article but it was only clarifying what I already knew. Sure it's nice to actually get a better grasp on the concept but the topic was known. Article was well written and well worded though. I enjoyed reading it a lot.

 

 

 

Hopefully Jagex doesn't see this and think 'So monster killing is too high, let's make it less profitable for monster killers'..Dang that would really screw up the economy, lol.

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I really enjoyed the article. I try not to lean towards one aspect of a game but try to spread out my likes. I find I get interested in something and then focus on it for a couple months. Combat is a catch 22 in my opinion as if Monster slayers didn't have cash they wouldn't buy supplies from the skillers.

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EXCELLENT article, I can't praise it enough! Super subject, very well considered and treated.

 

 

 

Although the GE and removal of gold farmers have definitely been the major factors in the death of skilling profits, there is one other influence - the introduction of skill capes long before December 2007.

 

 

 

Exactly! The capes are a game breaker. There has to be a mechanism to remove finished goods from the game, so that the glut of production doesn't kill the value of the skill. It has gotten to a point, where is it literally cheaper to not level then to level.

 

 

 

Consider prayer pots. Prayer pots sell for 5,675 each. To level from 0 in herblore to 38 would take 1,217 attack potions. Not counting vials or seconds it would cost 543,999 to be able to make prayer pots "for free." It only gets worse at higher levels. Crafting is in a similar boat. The capes destroyed one of the main reasons for leveling; the monetary rewards for being "the best" at something.

 

 

 

The two main reasons people give that this is a feature of the game and not a game breaker, is that "You're paying for the exp not the materials." I call shenanigans on this, b/c at this point, apart from quest requirements; there is no real reason to level. I don't think I am being unreasonable for wanting a break-even method to level.

 

 

 

People also counter with "Gather your own materials." Yeah there is nothing I would like better with my free time is to click an electric rock 10k times. If I wanted a boring repetitive job, I would stick with Kinko's.

 

 

 

The glut of outputs must be removed.

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Good read ;)

 

But sadly, it is true... The game has become more combat orientated even since I've started playing (October 2006), however there's hope that things may change a bit for the better once the pkers have their pking again :thumbup:

 

 

 

To be honest, I am more combat based, but I do like non-combat skills- they're just all money sinkers (apart from the ones which can't be, obviously :P)

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The thing people have to get wrapped around their head is that it doesn't matter what's tweaked or whatnot, skills will never be profitable except in a few select cases. People are ready to spend money in order to gain exp, this means that quickly after their arrival in the game, new ways to make money through skills will quickly stop being profitable, then cut even or make a loss of money.

 

 

 

To make any kind of profit with a skill you need either: A) A very arduous and boring skill no one else wants to do. Eg: Runecrafting. B) Very high set of skill requirements that a very little amount of players have. eg: 85 slayer when whips were introduced. But, for it to stay profitable a decent amount of time, the requirements just have to be very restrictive.

 

 

 

Boss hunting is a mix of restrictive requirements/risk/arduous and obnoxious idiots you have to team up with. That combinason of annoying factors is why boss hunting is profitable.

 

 

 

In other words, if something is fun, no profit. If something is unfun, you make profit. Lol, don't you just love this game?

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Good read.

 

 

 

But I have to disagree with you on several things. The big one being that skilling is startign to die off. I happen to be a slight skiller myself, and I make 98% of my money through skilling. COmbat isn't profitable all the time, you will lose and you will win.

 

 

 

Unlike skilling, where you really don't lose a thing.

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In other words, if something is fun, no profit. If something is unfun, you make profit. Lol, don't you just love this game?

 

 

 

LIES! :shame:

 

 

 

I think fishing is fun, and I make money off of it! :lol:

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I think fishing is fun, and I make money off of it! :lol:

 

 

 

That's a gathering skill, not a production skill. Pardon us if we aren't exact in our terminology, when we talk skills. Gathering skills can be profitable. Production skills, simply are not. These fish you sell are they raw or cooked?

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no i dont agree with the article. it comes down to why do you skill? do you need supplies? the game is more than combat and it's also more than skilling.

 

 

 

if you stand in a bank and level your herblore you will lose money; what do you expect? same with crafting; you bought the materials; it's not rocket science.

 

 

 

to be a successful skiller you need some skill! it doesnt take skill to buy everything on the ge. sorry, it just doesnt. things take time. use all your skills to develop your character. all the skills tend to help each other including combat! dont forget that. combat helps skills and skills help combat. and i should mention if you arent making use of summoning, you should! and i see no mention of summoning and its benefits to skillers; really you need to be more balanced in your approach to the topic.

 

 

 

i think people tend to want easy ways to make tons of money but if you're only going to play 1/2 the game then you get 1/2 the rewards.

 

 

 

basically the whole editorial comes off as a huge moan and welcomes more moaning and i cant say i agree with that.

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That's a gathering skill, not a production skill. Pardon us if we aren't exact in our terminology, when we talk skills. Gathering skills can be profitable. Production skills, simply are not. These fish you sell are they raw or cooked?

 

 

 

There are production (what I call "conversion") skill activities that make money. They are the ones that provide no XP or low XP. That's why they are moneymakers.

 

 

 

One example: churning butter.

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In other words, if something is fun, no profit. If something is unfun, you make profit. Lol, don't you just love this game?

 

 

 

LIES! :shame:

 

 

 

I think fishing is fun

 

I like watching paint dry too.

 

 

 

and I make money off of it! :lol:

 

I'm sure you're going to be billionaire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not

 

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EXCELLENT article, I can't praise it enough! Super subject, very well considered and treated.

 

 

 

Although the GE and removal of gold farmers have definitely been the major factors in the death of skilling profits, there is one other influence - the introduction of skill capes long before December 2007.

 

 

 

Exactly! The capes are a game breaker. There has to be a mechanism to remove finished goods from the game, so that the glut of production doesn't kill the value of the skill. It has gotten to a point, where is it literally cheaper to not level then to level.

 

 

 

Consider prayer pots. Prayer pots sell for 5,675 each. To level from 0 in herblore to 38 would take 1,217 attack potions. Not counting vials or seconds it would cost 543,999 to be able to make prayer pots "for free." It only gets worse at higher levels. Crafting is in a similar boat. The capes destroyed one of the main reasons for leveling; the monetary rewards for being "the best" at something.

 

 

 

The two main reasons people give that this is a feature of the game and not a game breaker, is that "You're paying for the exp not the materials." I call shenanigans on this, b/c at this point, apart from quest requirements; there is no real reason to level. I don't think I am being unreasonable for wanting a break-even method to level.

 

 

 

People also counter with "Gather your own materials." Yeah there is nothing I would like better with my free time is to click an electric rock 10k times. If I wanted a boring repetitive job, I would stick with Kinko's.

 

 

 

The glut of outputs must be removed.

 

 

 

 

 

I agreee with both wholeheartedly.

 

 

 

I had a friend who got 99 fletching before skillcapes, and he got it not for the 99 but because he profited from it. As was the case for almost all skills back then, you level'd a skill either for fun or money. The only people who would 'throw' money at a skill were people getting quest requirements or the very rare person trying to get a skill to 99. But nowdays with the majority of people leveling skills like fletching, smithing, herblore, crafting etc are doing it for exp and levels opposed to fun or for money. Which just means that they don't care wether the skill is profitable as much as they arent aiming to make anything.

 

 

 

Before skillcapes, the skillers making the profits controlled the markets, they would keep the items they sold a certain amount above the items they brought, which they also had a hand in controlling the price of being the main people buying them. But now with the thousands only doing a skill for exp and not profit, and with the addition of the grand exchange taking the control of the market away from the skillers, the prices just go the way of the people willing to throw money at a skill, buying items higher than the skillers, and undercutting the skillers on the produced item.

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I'm not sure if I agree that warriors make assuredly more money than skillers. With 91 runecraft, I can make 900k an hour. That's like getting a 3-man bandos hilt split every 10 hours. I know some people can kill saradomin and armadyl bosses more for more income, but really, does this mean the game has left its skilling roots? Not at all.

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so... Anyone can think of a solution?

 

 

 

I "ranted" about this at the same day skillcapes were introduced already: yet back then I was literary flamed for saying and "destroying" a goal.. "I shouldn't talk because I was so low leveled".

 

Sorry but for me levels have never been a goal.

 

The main reason we're seeing this "big" problem at this moment is that the supplies seem to dty up: the only way to be a healthy economy (in which high level stuff earns more than low level stuff) is if there is an always oversupply of lower leveled stuff.. And the only way to do that is IF there is an always increasing number of new players.

 

The main problem is that in every skill you need at least half the xp after you get the most profitable item! And on top of that: the higher leveled items aren't really that MUCH used.

 

A perfect example is smithing: Let's say you can smith 10 full rune sets/hour, and a typical person only needs like 5 sets in his runescape life: that would mean that for every person 1 new person needs to come after every 1/(2 * (1/30)) (I assume you spent 1/30th of your time smithing - if you're making a balanced character this should be about right) = 15 hours! Not much? - Well those new person also "need" a market when they get high.. Making that the runescape userbase should grow exponentionally: and double every 15 hours!

 

Just to keep a healthy economy where in the end skills are profitable.

 

 

 

The only thing that MIGHT make skills profitable again is by doing a few things:

 

First of all skilling should get a danger vs reward again. An easy fix would be for example to make all gathering skills' items spawn around 1.2 times as fast in a PvP world as in a normal world!

 

For the bank skills (skills which require you to spent most time banking/not in the field) it isn't that easy: there the only way to make the skill more profitable is by increasing the uses! - The PvP worlds might "fix" the smithing problem: maybe there it will become that armor is removed from the game as fast as it is added.

 

 

 

But this won't fix the biggest problem at all: people skill for the sake of levels! (and the 99 cape).

 

This can be fixed not that difficult: Make a cape that's not too difficult to get, yet it's stats are BETTER than the skillcape in every way. - But this would make the firecape pointless too.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

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Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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As someone said, the Capes caused this. Due to the nature of Runescape, you're going to be making hundreds of thousands of high level items to get to 99. Since most items produced are not consumed nor do they decay, we have a huge glut of products in the market. Even items that are consumed, potions, ranging ammunition, food, and runes, are so numerous that players can't even begin to use them all. Plus, some monsters drop these items as well. Also, many high end items are exclusively monster drops. Not just armor or weapons, but some skilling items, the most prominent being the dragon axe. Plus, with the inclusion of Summoning, a skill that REQUIRES you to fight monsters, this game is looking more and more combat oriented. And, if it continues down this path, the game will be ruined. Why? Well, in terms of combat, Runescape can not compare to WoW or WAR. Sure, the two require better computers, and are almost three times the cost, but they offer a lot less grinding and the combat aspect is a greater challenge.

If the CORPORAL beast is this hard, imagine how hard a GENERAL or COLONEL beast would be. a corporal is not even an admirable rank in armies that use that ranking system.

 

Yeah, it is a pking minigame, so any arguments anybody makes will probably be biased.

The best way this will end :Everybody just says,"I'm not arguing with you anymore, goodbye."

The worst way this will end: I don't really know, psychological warfare? Worldwide thermonuclear war? Pie eating contest?

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there is really a few simple ways to fix this

 

 

 

-remove

 

cook-x

 

smelt-x

 

mix-x

 

make the skill cape stats really crap(talking - in stats)

 

remove alot of the rune(and other armor drops) drops from such things as bosses and tt rewards and replace whith gp

 

 

 

add-

 

hopfully the new stratagy waring minigame will do this.

 

add a major drain for armor and arrows and wepons and cooked food, bows(giving to troops you hire?)

 

add a reason to use bloods more, better spells that ppl can use oten

 

a boss week to mage(<--realy needed)

 

add a better incentive for high leveled skills(con, herb,mage,wc, PRAYER especialy.)

 

 

 

and if that all is done runescape will be basicly perfect

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Train combat skilling narb. <3:

 

 

 

I was surprised to see an article from my good friend Storm, so I read it and I was happy. I remember when I was going for 70+ in all my skills, and thinking of ways to make money with Herblore or fletching. A friend of mine, back in the day, managed to make tons of cash while headed for 85 Herblore. It's gotten to the point where the only way to train skills is to use money from training combat.

 

 

 

But don't worry Storm, the balanced skillers will never die because I don't think you'll stop being one anytime soon. =D>

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