Tip.it Times Presents: A Time of War

[Xezalb]

An interesting read, and I definitely agree with the author. Combat is where the most money is at these days.

[Aneron]

Interesting article, but I disagree that combat is ridiculously overpowered and skilling is weak and puny.

 

 

 

For the last year, GWD was extraordinarily fast money - following mathematical averages over 2M/hour in some cases. However, taking into account the recent drop in prices of hilts the highest gp/hour I've calculated as currently being possible is about 1.2M/hour by soloing bandos or saradomin (I'm not sure about armadyl as I don't know the kills/trip or time/kill, but I know that you take a lot more damage than saradomin and I don't imagine kills are much faster).

 

 

 

I think it's fair to say that the skilling equipvalent of GWD is 91 runecrafting natures, which takes about an equally long time to get as truly good GWD stats (the ones necessary to get the 1.2M/hour described in the previous paragraph), and despite what people have said, it is not ruined for money. Although the profit per essence crafted has dropped considerably, the amount of essences possible to craft/hour has risen proportionally, meaning it is still about 1M/hour. This modern way of nature runecrafting (primarily the horned graahk) also has the bonus of giving more xp/hour than the old way. This does have the advantage over GWD in that it is guaranteed and steady, instead of hilts which are both very rare and unstable in price, plus it's a bit safer lol.

 

 

 

So what do I think has changed? Combat temporarily gained an extraordinary advantage over skilling and then lost most of it.

 

 

 

I have heard people saying that they can get over 1M/hour by hunting the Dagganoth Kings, but I am dubious of both whether this was ever possible, and even more so whether it is now with DK loot dropping very badly so I discounted this. I also ignored the Corporeal Beast since currently we don't know enough about it so give an average gp/hour... especially since most people who hunt it use lootshare in order to avoid placing the improperly priced sigils on the grand exchange, meaning you would have to do a truly absurd amount of Beast killing in order to get at the real money.

[Qeauxraline]

The game is totally out of whack skill-wise. With the new influx of players since the killing off of PKing 9 months ago, the amount of skillers has decreased dramatically because they are not profitable.

 

 

 

All of this has driven the economy completely out of whack, and I would predict that it will be even worse when these PvP worlds are realeased because there will not be enough skillers to meet the demand of the PKers. Inflation will be crazy, and the few skillers who are left and the merchants will make millions, and then people will scream "PRICE MANIPULATIONS!! JAGEX STOP PL0X!" all over the forums.

 

 

 

It's going to suck all over again, but hopefully it will get better faster.

[Nabbagad]

Yeah that was a good read, and I agree with the author.

 

 

 

Jagex need to release something for skillers that can make profits in the millions in the same amount of time and skill as the combat profits. But there would need to be some risk involved, which is hard because HP is the main risk of the whole game.

[Kimberly]

Ahhh. :D Thought provoking Tip.it Times are sooo refreshing.

 

 

 

Yes, balanced and skillers are dying breeds. Combat has been, for as long as I've played, the main focus. Part of this, I think, is tied to what I believe is a flawed combat system. Yet there's one other part: Jagex refuses to acknowledge any sort of "pure" style account.

 

 

 

They WANT people to do everything, not just what interests them.

 

 

 

While anyone can take a stab as to why this is--one person's guess is as good as any--it doesn't change the issue. They will not make allowances for any sort of type of "character" to do things easier. The general population is most familiar with pures complaining about armor and quests. Another lesser example is the Summoning skill--which can be fairly useful for skillers attempting to turn a profit--which is mostly trained by combat-based methods. The theiving chests in the goblin city are a joke, and they're not worth getting 60 summoning there.

 

 

 

It's sort of sad. This new pking craze, where pures will be in even higher demand, isn't exactly helping either.

 

 

 

And if anyone understood that ramble, kudos. It's 1:34 am and I have 6 more chapters to read on Java Data Structures. God help me. :pray:

[stormveritas]

Wow! Feedback came in fast on this one. Thanks to everyone that's posted.

 

 

 

I did get a kick out of one person telling me I should try raising my skills before I complain; I only felt justified in writing this because that's how I've always played.

 

 

 

Some arguments are well made and I can't counter; 91 Runecrafting is certainly a good earner, but I think that speaks to a scaling issue. I think that 91 Runecrafting is a -much- more difficult achievement than 91 in all melee stats, and very few people have achieved 91 Runecrafting, which adds weight to the case.

 

 

 

My solution is a simple one. Pokemama hit the nail on the head with the allure of skillcapes driving too many folks to powerskill. The way to recreate moneymaking opportunities in skills is to create ways to level which may not be the fastest route, but offer a "home run" style lucrative item or reward which requires a high level and a good deal of luck.

 

 

 

The days of leveling skills and making money for non-gathering skills is over, but Jagex has found a nice niche to profit from in a few skills already. Impetuous Impulses and Pyramid Plunder both offer items which are rare rewards but can be quite lucrative (Dragon Implings and the Pharoah's Sceptre, respectively). I think this serves as a decent footprint of how Jagex could continue to make the skills attractive without getting profit margin squeezed dry.

[davidium]

to some extent combat has indeed over-powered skilling...one very noticeable area is how smithing of weapons and armour is no longer a viable option anymore. in RS1 lots of people held smithers in high respect and everyone waited eagerly for the first smither to get 99 smithing in order to make the best rune equipment. back then smithers were one of the richest players and most people regarded addy and even mithril as very expensive. currently only noobs (low level players) wear these items and their prices are...dirt cheap.

 

 

 

everyone wants to get bandos or barrow or 3rd age which unfortunately cannot be made by smithers. back then, most non-combat skills had links to combat and demand for more combat will drive the demand for non-combat skills such as mining, smithing, crafting, fishing, cooking, herblore and stuff. back then it was everyone's dream to get 99 smithing due to the money that could be earned but now...getting 99 smithing will cause you quite a bit unless you make cballs which is slow -.-

 

 

 

Jagex should tighten the relationship between non-combat and combat skills once again...and i would also like to point out that the GE did not just lower potion prices but the prices of everything. the main reason why potion prices are so low is because lots of high level players left the game when PvP was taken away, reducing the demand for potions. however introduction of GWD propped up the price of these potions somewhat, especially sara brews.

[Aneron]

Wow! Feedback came in fast on this one. Thanks to everyone that's posted.

 

 

 

I did get a kick out of one person telling me I should try raising my skills before I complain; I only felt justified in writing this because that's how I've always played.

 

 

 

Some arguments are well made and I can't counter; 91 Runecrafting is certainly a good earner, but I think that speaks to a scaling issue. I think that 91 Runecrafting is a -much- more difficult achievement than 91 in all melee stats, and very few people have achieved 91 Runecrafting, which adds weight to the case.

 

 

 

My solution is a simple one. Pokemama hit the nail on the head with the allure of skillcapes driving too many folks to powerskill. The way to recreate moneymaking opportunities in skills is to create ways to level which may not be the fastest route, but offer a "home run" style lucrative item or reward which requires a high level and a good deal of luck.

 

 

 

The days of leveling skills and making money for non-gathering skills is over, but Jagex has found a nice niche to profit from in a few skills already. Impetuous Impulses and Pyramid Plunder both offer items which are rare rewards but can be quite lucrative (Dragon Implings and the Pharoah's Sceptre, respectively). I think this serves as a decent footprint of how Jagex could continue to make the skills attractive without getting profit margin squeezed dry.

 

 

 

Runecrafting is generally 20-30k xp/hour while making runes normally, 40k or so/hour with ouriana. Melee skills max at about 100k/hour individually, or 33k/hour if you train them collectively, meaning if you camped zombie monkies you could get 91 melees a bit faster than 91 runecrafting. This doesn't take into account how absurdly slow melee skills are to start with though. Nor does it take into account the time needed for the prayer/ranged/summoning levels needed for GWD (Ok I know that no GWD boss needs melee and ranged, but if you want to do all of them you will need both). Also you will be making profit the whole time you are runecrafting, while at zombie monkies you lose a minuscule amount of money. Of course to fix that one could train slayer with a cannon which is somewhat profitable and gives charms, but that is also considerably slower.

 

 

 

I think the dependence upon luck of monster hunting gives an advantage to skilling, which is absolute and certain. You can spend 50 hours soloing GWD without getting a hilt (like I did :P), but 50 hours of 91 rc natures will always give you 50m.

 

 

 

I agree that adding some luck into the equation would make things more interesting though.

[Killiecrankie]

It is just a game!

[qeltar]

To understand why people make or lose money in RS activities, you need to recognize the three main reasons players undertake certain activities: fun, XP and profit. Human nature being what it is, people will tend to want to spend the most time on things that provide the most of all three. But the more people who undertake a particular activity, the more this impacts the ability of players to have fun, earn XP and make a profit. And the profitability is affected the most.

 

 

 

The end result is a situation where the activities that are the most fun or earn the most XP make the lease profit. Why? Because players who value fun or XP above profit are willing to sacrifice earnings to achieve their other goals. That is why no matter what Jagex does with easy production skills, there will be no profit -- people don't care because they enjoy the skills or want the XP.

 

 

 

Look at the production skills that make a profit and it's easy to see why: they are either not considered fun by most players, they are very slow or give little XP, or both. Even within a skill there are options that lose money or make money, depending on XP and "fun" (which is subjective).

 

 

 

Why do the gathering skills make money? Simple: they are slow and generally tedious. People won't do them unless they get $$ for their effort.

 

 

 

What's the solution? There isn't an easy one. As long as players value XP and having fun, they will put profit second. But one step towards fixing skills like Crafting is to make more options to earn XP without creating "stuff". Another is making more items that are consumable.

[Perakp]

I don't remember skills ever making more money than combat, so I don't recognize any change.

 

Runecrafting, rune mining and chin hunting are still the best three and aren't much worse than slayer, clues, dks, gwd etc.

 

 

 

The best moneymakers nowadays are the ones that don't require much time ingame: farming and MTK.

 

 

 

 

Are balanced and non-combat players a dying breed?

 

I hope so. Time for the skillers to see how much fun they'd have if they stopped skilling.

[Hawks]

The truth is, yes, balanced and non-combat player 'classes' are dying. I play much less now because there's no point. Even if you're level 50, (like me) there's no point in continuing to play when level 100 players are always getting the kills you need to join their ranks. And skilling isn't profitable anymore, and like the author said, gathering supplies is tedious work.

[killerbeer0]

I have noticed that Jagex seems to be catering more to the balanced player more with new quests. They seem to be slowly manipulating the game in order to return that balance (and in the process making it better overall).

[Hevendor_Guy]

I wish they WOULD bring something back for the skillers...even if just to get them out of our domain. Far too many skillers-gone-pkers who don't know how to pk are invading on our territory, where the people who play this game to do PvP reign. Especially in BH, where we are shoved together into one miniscule pk area in which we can't simply get away from them, we get annoyed by the kids who have skilled all their rs career or just never been PvP'ers. They were around before, but now they're out in force.

 

 

 

And the next skiller I see walking around with a godsword for no reason... :wall:

[vlad_the_old]

Very good article Stormy. I can honestly say the changes over the last year or so have made big changes to the way I play.

 

 

 

PvP was never something that greatly interested me for one thing I could never swap between the different attacks and eating fast enough to keep up with the other player. :oops: (However recently I have been playing FOG and have been enjoying it I suppose its because I dont really mind if I win or lose).

 

 

 

I used to consider myself a fairly balanced player, with more focus on skilling rather than combat. (I managed to get 1700 total levels while keeping my combat level below 90.) Problem was I never had much in the way of gp around 2 to 3 mil in cash while all the rest was tied up in resources. This meant I could never buy my levels by spending money on resources in large quantities. As a result most of my resources were ones I gathered myself. The bit of money I made was via Managing my Kingdom and selling flax, maple logs and coal. (I kept all the extras to help with farming, herblore and crafting).

 

 

 

When the prices dropped out of the finished item market and most skills became a money pit I made the decision to work more on combat. So I focused on slayer as a means of training combat. So now I have a total of 2008 levels and am lvl 123 combat. I have over 20 mil available to buy things I may need, with about 50 to 60 mil tied up in resources. (I have about 4 or 5 levels banked in construction 2 or 3 levels in herblore, about 2 prayer levels, more than enough logs to get to 99 in both fletching and firemaking, ores and bars for about 4 levels of smithing and a number of farming levels).

 

 

 

Problem is, there is very little incentive to gain any of those levels. For instance with a herblore of 82 I can make any potion I may need. Any potions I make, apart from prayer, super restores and Sara brews I would do better selling off the raw ingredients. The only way those 3 potions still gain me money is that I get the herbs through farming or drops and the secondary ingredients I gather myself or obtain from my kingdom.

 

 

 

Fletching again very little point. Unstrung maple longs have now become the junk trade item to be used to increase the price being charged for items. Its quicker for me to go do a slayer task to get gp than it would be to cut, string and high alch 1k of yew long bows in fact in the same time I would probably get more from the slayer task.

 

 

 

Crafting is one of the few skills I would actually like to get a 99 cape in. Making up my daily allowance of battlestaffs makes money for me. It is also a skill that helps me gain exp in other skills mining, for gold ore and gems; smithing, for making gold bars; mage, for making air orbs and high alching the battlestaffs and jewellery I make. Again the only way I make money is by gathering the resources myself, for instance dragon hides now cost more than the value of the finished articles. It may be just a case of the laws of supply and demand, too many people are trying to work on gaining crafting levels and they all have more money than me to blow on the skill.

 

 

 

I dont know how things will change with the reintroduction of PvP and the addition of PvP worlds. It is slightly worrying that it may mean there is a reduction in the number of servers for people who do not wish to risk being in a PvP world. This would mean even more fighting for resources. It may also mean that, for those that are prepared to brave it, on PvP worlds resource gathering is made a lot easier. I dont think the change will make it worth going back to skilling over combat, but it will be interesting to find out the changes Jagex has planned. With the promise of a headline update every month, it certainly sounds like there will be plenty to occupy the interest of all players. \

[Golvellius]

Well, your right on in that the game is imbalanced towards monster hunting.

 

 

 

The solutions are so simple its just plain negligence on Jagex's part that they don't implement them.

 

Just increase drop rates to like 1 in 10 and get rid of the dam lootshare!

 

 

 

Its time that Jagex start making this game for everybody again and not the few.

 

The few being the group monster huggers, the ethugs, and the non-players (aka merchants).

[Lord_Shalaj]

I don't agree with the main content of the article.

 

 

 

Before I explain why, you should be familiar with the phrase "You see what you expect to see" (phrased differently for my convienience :P)

 

 

 

The option still exists, whether you would like to skill or kill. Just because the "killing" has been getting a few more updates than skilling, it doesn't mean the balance of the game is shifting. You say the updates to skilling have been minimal compared to combat, I say the few updates that have been added on many instances surpass the updates made to combat.

 

 

 

Beacon Lighting - Firemaking had its title of being a "utterly useless" skill kicked out. Beacons also provide another alternative method of training firemaking which have provided decent xp if you do it properly. I see so many friends trying to get an Inferno Adze, and now Firemaking has a nice little use that definitely propels others to raise this once a useless skill. Has any combat skill been totally reborn as compared to Firemaking?

 

 

 

This was an example.

 

 

 

You say that the addition of God Wars, Mithril Dragons, new slayer rewards, Corporeal Beast have all encouraged people to stop skilling and start combat. Do skillers not get affected in a good way?!!

 

 

 

These all brought an increase in price for food, potions, adamant bars,[And even gold bars at times for ring of slaying] bolts, arrows and crossbows. DOes this not help Fishing, Herblore, Smithing and Fletching? And you feel that skillers don't get updates?

 

 

 

These two sides are totally linked and depend upon each other. Killers can't sustain without skillers and vice versa. If one side gets an update, it will affect the other, and each and every update has a positive point to view for both the sides.

 

 

 

As I mentioned, you see what you expect to see. I see it a high time to make potions and then sell them for a profit when PvP comes out. Looks like skilling is better for the moment. But is that the point of view of each and every person here? Probably not.

 

 

 

Thanks..

 

Lord Shalaj

[Guthorm]

Well this is what I think. The article does have a point that training combat probably will profit more than non-combat skills. But in order to obtain that award, the combat person must endorse huge risks to earn it, they have to buy supplies, wear expensive armor and use expensive weapons to kill dangerous opponents. The risk of dying and there for lose expensive armor is much more than skillers. Unless you afked and hit by a swarm to death or something. -.-

 

 

 

Skillers however may gain slower money than warriors, but they will almost always profit on some way or another while warriors may die and lost profit during hunting trips.

 

 

 

I see this really as a matter of risk vs award, the greater the risk you take, the greater the reward, and vice versa.

 

 

 

Thats just my two cents.

[stormveritas]

I don't agree with the main content of the article.

 

 

 

(lots of details)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the concept, and your general point. In a vacuum, you are absolutely right; what's good for the demand side is indirectly good for suppliers. Unfortunately, in practice the interdependency really isn't there anymore.

 

 

 

• [*:1d70q0rd]Summoning has drastically reduced the reliance of monster hunters upon skillers. Creatures like the bunyip and unicorn have cut into the call for food, and titans have made trips go by more quickly. [*:1d70q0rd]Items like the black mask / slayer helm / salve amulet (e) / godswords / armor have reduced the appeal of potions. Permanent increases to stats and overall bonuses have made the incentive less appetizing or necessary to kill the same baddies.[*:1d70q0rd]The Grand Exchange destroyed price on potions, because so many herblorists found trading pots too tedious. Given the opportunity to dump potions, they did - and did for a huge pricedown. Super attack, strength, defense, agility potions, super energies... they have not recovered. All of these skills are now cost-out to perform.[*:1d70q0rd]Skillcapes created such an alluring incentive that many non-skill based players chose to powerlevel skills to collect Level 99's. Whereas previously only a skill based player could be bothered to fletch to make money, the fast experience lured many combateers in with the promise of a huge prayer bonus on their cape if they got 99 Fletching, creating a glut on the market and skyrocketing the demand/price on yew logs.

[tameelf]

as more ppl lvlin a set skill reach 99 or less. the demand of that produce lessens and the market floods (200 mill exp in herblore)it cant recover unless new additions are added to the skill and the player base continiues to expand.the 99 cap (and ideas)adding new items at 20,mill exp 100,150. and 200 mill would revamp alot of skills.

 

there is no longer a fast buck in skills but there can be and always was in combat.

[Haaa_Haaa0]

Hmmm...An interesting article. I do agree, skillers have decreased quite drastically. You never see the non-autoer level 3 skillers anymore, because of the emphasis placed on combat. However, with the re-introduction of PVP, I believe that many skills will become profitable and popular again.

 

Herblore: Super sets, prayer potions, etc., will become more desirous for PVP'ers.

 

Fletching: Bolts will become a neccesity for rangers, increasing demand.

 

Runecrafting: Combat runes (of course), and spells such as Vengance will be useful for profit.

 

This is but a small sample of how i think skills will become more profitable (or at least less expensive to train).

 

 

 

Just my 2 cents :

[Lord_Shalaj]

1) Summoning, in my opinion, has affected nearly all of the skills. While as you rightly mention that the Bunyip and Unicorn result in less demand for food, there are familiars which enhance non-combat skills, and enchance very well I might add. Granite Lobster, Arctic Bear, Compost Mound, Hydra, Abyssal familiars - You see, the list is big, and their abilities are too good. Again, with the Summoning update, both the sides got some pros to be happy about.

 

 

 

2) It may have, but each and every avid slayerer that I know uses potions. The main bonus that all the above items "stack" with the percentage of increase of potions and that makes potions even more worthwhile. The only thing that can beat the Slayer helm/mask + potions increase is slayer helm with a Steel Titan (or Iron Titan for a less increase), but unfortunately, that ability is only with under 1% of the RS players. :P

 

 

 

3) As mentioned, if the PvP worlds update turns out good, Herblore is not expected to remain a skill that gives loss if you do the primary task, i.e. making potions.

 

 

 

4) This I agree. Too many people crazy for a skillcape have spoiled the few profits out of the skills of Fletching and Cooking [may become a bit better with PvP, but I'm not going to count on it], but it does contain a few more good methods for the ones who want to make money, and if you seriously enjoy a skill, I say you don't worry about the gold pieces. It's about you having fun and enjoying yourself :)

 

 

 

Thanks..

 

Lord Shalaj

[aquariusman]

The increase of combat-related updates, and the general trend of Jagex favouring combat recently, is almost definitely because of the elimination of the old Wilderness. Jagex was trying to keep the combat-oriented players interested in the game, and PKing was a major part of the game for combatants. Also, there are some skillers that are thriving in post-RWT Runescape. I would be one of them if I still played regularly, and they are the gatherers. The ones that chopped the logs, mined the ores, caught the fish, farmed the herbs, and are the start of the process from potential resource to finished product. I'd even go so far as to say that without the gatherers, Runescape would have no economy. A very good example is the removal of RWT. The majority of the bots were resource-gatherers, and with their absence, the prices of certain items skyrocketed. A good portion of raw materials experienced a sharp rise in price, making it much more worthwhile to be a gatherer. Skilling hasn't died, it just shifted from producing to collecting.

[Ravenkana]

I don't agree with the main content of the article.

 

 

 

(lots of details)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like the concept, and your general point. In a vacuum, you are absolutely right; what's good for the demand side is indirectly good for suppliers. Unfortunately, in practice the interdependency really isn't there anymore.

 

 

 

• [*:cui59r73]Summoning has drastically reduced the reliance of monster hunters upon skillers. Creatures like the bunyip and unicorn have cut into the call for food, and titans have made trips go by more quickly. [*:cui59r73]Items like the black mask / slayer helm / salve amulet (e) / godswords / armor have reduced the appeal of potions. Permanent increases to stats and overall bonuses have made the incentive less appetizing or necessary to kill the same baddies.[*:cui59r73]The Grand Exchange destroyed price on potions, because so many herblorists found trading pots too tedious. Given the opportunity to dump potions, they did - and did for a huge pricedown. Super attack, strength, defense, agility potions, super energies... they have not recovered. All of these skills are now cost-out to perform.[*:cui59r73]Skillcapes created such an alluring incentive that many non-skill based players chose to powerlevel skills to collect Level 99's. Whereas previously only a skill based player could be bothered to fletch to make money, the fast experience lured many combateers in with the promise of a huge prayer bonus on their cape if they got 99 Fletching, creating a glut on the market and skyrocketing the demand/price on yew logs.

I feel the need to add that Summoning's mechanics have made Runescape slightly more combat oriented. Of course, there are some good rewards for skillers, but the charms, and many of the seconds, require you to kill monsters.

[Lord_Shalaj]

 

 

 

I like the concept, and your general point. In a vacuum, you are absolutely right; what's good for the demand side is indirectly good for suppliers. Unfortunately, in practice the interdependency really isn't there anymore.

 

 

 

• [*:3iqj19ks]Summoning has drastically reduced the reliance of monster hunters upon skillers. Creatures like the bunyip and unicorn have cut into the call for food, and titans have made trips go by more quickly. [*:3iqj19ks]Items like the black mask / slayer helm / salve amulet (e) / godswords / armor have reduced the appeal of potions. Permanent increases to stats and overall bonuses have made the incentive less appetizing or necessary to kill the same baddies.[*:3iqj19ks]The Grand Exchange destroyed price on potions, because so many herblorists found trading pots too tedious. Given the opportunity to dump potions, they did - and did for a huge pricedown. Super attack, strength, defense, agility potions, super energies... they have not recovered. All of these skills are now cost-out to perform.[*:3iqj19ks]Skillcapes created such an alluring incentive that many non-skill based players chose to powerlevel skills to collect Level 99's. Whereas previously only a skill based player could be bothered to fletch to make money, the fast experience lured many combateers in with the promise of a huge prayer bonus on their cape if they got 99 Fletching, creating a glut on the market and skyrocketing the demand/price on yew logs.

I feel the need to add that Summoning's mechanics have made Runescape slightly more combat oriented. Of course, there are some good rewards for skillers, but the charms, and many of the seconds, require you to kill monsters.

 

 

 

They do indeed, but then there are skills like Magic that require you to skill to train it. (crafting runes)

 

 

 

Thanks..

 

Lord Shalaj