HTML5 beta discussion

[Ambler]

RS caps at 50 FPS, I believe...?

HTML5 caps at 60.

Didn't some jmod say that someone managed 120fps? If you have a 120Hz screen and a decent computer, don't see what that wouldn't be possible in minimum graphics. :lol:

[jayc3399]

RS caps at 50 FPS, I believe...?

HTML5 caps at 60.

Didn't some jmod say that someone managed 120fps? If you have a 120Hz screen and a decent computer, don't see what that wouldn't be possible in minimum graphics. :lol:

 

Why anyone would run at something other then 60Hz is beyond me, that's the natural recognition speed of your eyes, anything that's off from that can cause eye strain.

[Omali]

The good thing is, judging by the nis beta, the rs3 java engine is much improved so even if you can't benefit from html5 you ought to run better than now in java.

I mean I run near enough min settings on live java and get like 15 fps if I'm lucky; NIS servers i have running on max settings at a smooth 25+fps

 

Good. Hopefully RS3 will end the era of RuneScape having periods where it just plain barely works on people's computers. I'm sick of having one or two months at a time where the client is constantly at low FPS level across graphical settings, or just crashes randomly.

[PolarBearBlue]

Is resizeable suppose to look like this. Just curious because I don't remember (admitting it's been a while since I logged into NIS)

 

[hide][/hide]

[crazycdcm]

Why anyone would run at something other then 60Hz is beyond me, that's the natural recognition speed of your eyes, anything that's off from that can cause eye strain.

I'm not sure what you mean by the natural recognition speed. In nature, there isn't an FPS set on anything (I think we can ignore Planck lengths for this).

 

There may be an FPS as which static images are indiscernible from motion, but that's not to say the information heralded by 120 FPS is wasted on us. Especially in for example first person shooters, where our incredibly fast peripheral vision can come into play.

 

I've tried to put together a diagram to demonstrate how I understand 120 FPS to be better than 30. In case it's unclear, each square corresponds to 1/120th of a second, and the non-changing squares represent the shortfalls of the lower FPS.

 

 

 

In 120 FPS the image of a grenade (or as it may be a slight darkness in one corner) will reach the brain 25 milliseconds before that of the 30 FPS user.

 

Ideally, we would want to know the "sampling rate" of information by the human visual system to know when FPS is as high as it needs to be. My interpretation can be summed up by saying that 30/60 FPS is a limit of the part of the brain that generates the sensation of smooth motion, though there are other things the eyes do that aren't limited in the same way.

 

I welcome criticism, I'm not educated on the subject & most of the above is deduction, and if the "sampling rate" is 60 Hz, then my theory is wrong.

[HunterDexter]

Our brain has various systems to "view" an image or screen. The images we observe are measured against the "critical flicker fusion frequency", which makes our view as fluent as possible. For actual "looking" at something, the maximum we can get is 60 Hz. This is why computer displays operate at this rate.

However, some other parts of the brain (like the "danger"-center) can handle frequencies much higher. This is why we can get exhausted from watching a computerscreen all day, our head has to make up for the missing views, which costs enormous energy.

 

So to be fair, for our actual viewing, 60 Hz is the best, but a bit more is better for our brain. :)

 

I hope my explanation makes a bit sense (I'm studying medicine).

[Quyneax]

Seems the NIS has an overzealous game session system, I wasn't even on it for an hour and it booted me off >.>.

 

 

1) You can't resize or remove HUD displays, which is why the Momentum thingy is still there (it aligns better in fullscreen).

2) You can't remove the chatbox, minimap or options buttons, which is why the emotes tab is open at the smallest size (it has all the tabs except general).

4) You can't use hotkeys to open the tabs to the bottom-right (inventory etc.). They all try to open new interfaces which flashes the little lock icon because it's not allowed to open tabs when locked.

5) You can't rebind functon keys - they open 'central interfaces' which are bulky and offer no useful information. These should be buried deep, they're only rarely needed and not ever when you're in danger. They are more the kind of thing that you screenshot once, to show off you maxed them.

6) The money pouch takes up a whole line by itself, that should be less.

7) The tabs above the inventory can't be aligned vertically, I think.

8) The world map won't go transparent.

9) Health, prayer, run energy etc. can't be separated from the action bar.

10) The chatbox can't be kept resizable while the rest remains locked, which is annoying because I like big chatboxes but only at Flingers.

11) The worn inventory is sorted like the regular inventory, so you can't assume the top left item will always be your cape anymore. Really annoying.

12) The target function appears to be gone?

 

This interface is basically shit. No better than we have atm, because it lacks useful hotkeys and it is unneccesarily bulky, and critical parts are still not customizable.

[crazycdcm]

Upon deeper thought about FPS:

 

Say the maximum rate eyes can operate at is indeed 60 Hz - the world is presented to us in 1/60 second snippets,

 

Either that image can be formed as a composite of all that happened in the 1/60th of a second, or it can be a snapshot of a fraction of the 1/60th. Let's look at what happens in both cases.

 

Composite image case:

For any FPS less than or equal to 60 FPS, we see snapshots, so the next part would apply. For higher frame-rates, all of the frames viewed in the 1/60th of a second (in the 120 FPS example, 2 frames) would become blurred together. In this case the time advantage mentioned in the last post doesn't exist,

however

the information from the extra frames is

not

lost. In such a composite image the direction of motion could be gleaned in the form of the direction of the motion blur, or indeed its absence would suggest a static object.

 

Snapshot image case:

This is an interesting case, and a subtle concept. It's crucial to appreciate that there is no guarantee to the synchronisation of frames to images captured. As there is no guarantee of synchronisation, there is a potential latency between something changing on the screen, and it being captured by the eye.

 

We'll say that the eye recaptures an image corresponding to

1/k

seconds of time, where

k

≥

60

. (Note that the composite aspect could still apply, just in smaller and smaller amounts as

k

increases). We'll also say our screen is operating at

x

FPS

 

The maximum latency (

L

_max

) for

k ≥ x

is given in seconds by

L

_max

= 1/x - 1/k.

It follows that latency will be minimised for

x = k

. As we have already established

k

≥ 60, this means there is a benefit in reduced latency to an FPS ≥ 60.

 

Either way, in the case of eyes limited to 60 Hz, there is still benefit to using a frame-rate greater than that. It's easier to appreciate by substituting a camera in place of the eyes.

 

Definitely counterintuitive!

 

Our brain has various systems to "view" an image or screen. The images we observe are measured against the "critical flicker fusion frequency", which makes our view as fluent as possible. For actual "looking" at something, the maximum we can get is 60 Hz. This is why computer displays operate at this rate.

However, some other parts of the brain (like the "danger"-center) can handle frequencies much higher. This is why we can get exhausted from watching a computerscreen all day, our head has to make up for the missing views, which costs enormous energy.

 

So to be fair, for our actual viewing, 60 Hz is the best, but a bit more is better for our brain. :)

 

I hope my explanation makes a bit sense (I'm studying medicine).

 

Thanks for the info HunterDexter. Most of what I have been posting has been entirely theoretical, and in my scenario a computer with a camera attached would be interchangeable with a human body. (Obviously a flaw.)

 

I find perception very interesting on both the Gedankenexperiment and biological levels. As a student of medicine, could you send me some pointers, perhaps via PM, on what I could read about pertaining to what you said, as vision itself is probably a large fairly inpenetrable topic. Though I'll have a look (tomorrow when I'm less exhausted from staring at this screen) at the "critical flicker fusion frequency".

[Sy_Accursed]

11) The worn inventory is sorted like the regular inventory, so you can't assume the top left item will always be your cape anymore. Really annoying.

 

Only true if you make it too small, admittedly the size needed for the old-style layout to appear seems a bit big compared to previous interfaces but it does still exist.

[Saradomin_Mage]

11) The worn inventory is sorted like the regular inventory, so you can't assume the top left item will always be your cape anymore. Really annoying.

 

Only true if you make it too small, admittedly the size needed for the old-style layout to appear seems a bit big compared to previous interfaces but it does still exist.

Yeah, annoyingly enough most interfaces have been sized up quite a bit compared to their current versions. The NIS really needs a lighter version that doesn't waste screen space, or at least is more flexible with sizing.

[Sy_Accursed]

Definitely there so many bits that could do with being hidden, or displayed with much less space usage.

Eg all the chat box filters could easily be put in a right-click on the tab itself and tabs in chatbox and elsewhere could have a sort of 'autohide' feature rather than just sitting there. It'd also be useful to be able to place tabs vertically

[Jeffery]

I can't get used to the NIS I just want a simple option much like we've got now..

[Sy_Accursed]

Select the old-style layout preset.

Play game.

 

Simple option like we have now achieved.

[Saradomin_Mage]

The old style layout honestly isn't as close to the current setup as it'd like to be. You can only fit in 4 option tabs before having to scroll through for the rest, and the chat window is a huge mess.

 

Does anyone know how to remove the "Req assist" op that appears on other players in the NIS? Turning the assist setting to off doesn't get rid of it.

[Ammako]

I never realized that turning off Assist removed the right-click option.

[BluePortal]

They have now merged the two betas, go try it out!

 

Looks like varrock got new textures... gunna check others out.

Edited July 16, 2013 by BluePortal

[Saradomin_Mage]

I never realized that turning off Assist removed the right-click option.

THERE ARE ONLY TWO TRUE OPTIONS, TRADE AND FOLLOW

[Alg]

I never realized that turning off Assist removed the right-click option.

THERE ARE ONLY TWO TRUE OPTIONS, TRADE AND FOLLOW

and walk here

[jayc3399]

Tried out the NIS tonight, maxed at 50 fps and pretty much stayed there the hole time, saw minor drops of 1-5 fps which is what I expected on my computer.

 

NIS plus beta was a whole nother story. took forever to load, however once it did, I saw a fairly decent rate for fps, anywhere from 30-50 depending on how busy the area was, and drops as low as 15-20 when entering a new area the first time. Its got a little ways to go but overall I'm very excited about the interface changes. and the graphics aren't too bad however for being seamless you can see the transitions between things to much, they need to soften the edges so they aren't so white.

[Hameigh]

Played the combined beta. I was getting fairly consistent 25 FPS and then i put everything to max and averaged 10 FPS. Having the draw distance low helps loading be much faster and most of the time it could keep up with me running, though on highest I would occasionally freeze and have to wait. There is a big tile glitch around CW, I tried to go up on the wall and ended up running through the ground under the bridge and bank chest and on the river. I noticed since about 2 weeks ago when i played the beta last the minimap handles being huge much better. It was annoying that the sound didn't turn off despite me muting it in audio settings.

[Jon Arcane]

Have to say it's coming along quite nicely, the RS3 with NIS runs ok-ish on my computing rig, still loads to do though. But I suppose they can probably just pull it off for next Monday, HTML5 may not work brilliantly but the java client should hopefully be ironed out enough.

[Platinum_Myr]

NIS with HTML5 is far better than plain HTML5 (old client) but it still has graphics issues (some things look horrid like anti-aliasing) But it handles a lot cleaner.

 

HOWEVER, the interface takes *ages* to load in html5. The map was fixed though it actually can be enlarged super big and it shows less detailed pictures of the map at the edge, and more detailed at the center. You can't quite click far away though. If you put a walk flag in a super far corner on the minimap, it just disappears. Pathing system doesn't quite like it yet.

[Howlin0001]

I can't access the teleport loadstones any more, I can only teleport to the previous loadstone. Happening to anyone else?

[Omali]

And this is going to launch in less than a week. It's heartwarming to see that although Jagex has become a heartless business, they still have all the programming skills of Andrew Gower back when he first started writing RuneScape Classic.

 

Edit: I found a great post on the forums explaining how Jagex added in the gravestones not because they wanted to make the game easier but because the servers are made of cardboard and the game overall is poorly coded, so they needed a failsafe for people getting disconnected and servers crashing.

[Den]

*loads NIS on HTML5*

*logs in*

*please choose the interface you want*

*clicks one*

*page refreshes: Whoops, something went wrong.*

 

Now when I load it, it loads the sky, then crashes again and again and again... <_<