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Jagex - Bot Busting


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I'm not saying working in a group means working together like in dungeoneering..

 

Take runecrafting for example: the very best method in 2006 was using the abbys.. ALso here player interaction played a huge role (you had to evade pkers): this simplistic player interaction actually made bots having a much more difficult time.. There were hardly any runecrafting bots (while double nats was by far the best money-maker in whole runescape back then).

 

 

I'm not saying that everything should be working together, however if you dislike user interaction: why the hell you playing an MMO?

 

 

But what about my second suggestion: make it so that "granite power mining" isn't the best method to train mining, and that new methods constantly are unlocked every few levels.. That would mean that for each few levels another bot has to be written!

 

 

EDIT: (you edited while I was typing): that's not as easy as it sounds. Even if you control all bots it's hard to coordinate them.. Sure it might work on a small scale but what about big scale user interaction.. Where everything isn't planneable? This is a very hot topic in research actually: for satelites they want to create a cluster of small satelites who work together to get the same results as a big 1.. (But as each satelite is an own piece it's much more easy to replace 1). Here everything is build up from the ground on different bots to work together; yet this is the weak link in those satelite systems and has yet to be ironed out.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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I was talking to a irl relative on Skype. That person bots, anyhow he told me "180K" Players were on Runescape and i said something like "So? (There is more than 200K sometimes on)". After update came he then told me "Its now 60K online, lol All the bots are down and need updating." And i then chuckled, because it seems right.

 

I am gonna check next time many players is online before and after a update.

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I'm not saying working in a group means working together like in dungeoneering..

 

Take runecrafting for example: the very best method in 2006 was using the abbys.. ALso here player interaction played a huge role (you had to evade pkers): this simplistic player interaction actually made bots having a much more difficult time.. There were hardly any runecrafting bots (while double nats was by far the best money-maker in whole runescape back then).

 

 

I'm not saying that everything should be working together, however if you dislike user interaction: why the hell you playing an MMO?

 

 

But what about my second suggestion: make it so that "granite power mining" isn't the best method to train mining, and that new methods constantly are unlocked every few levels.. That would mean that for each few levels another bot has to be written!

 

 

EDIT: (you edited while I was typing): that's not as easy as it sounds. Even if you control all bots it's hard to coordinate them.. Sure it might work on a small scale but what about big scale user interaction.. Where everything isn't planneable? This is a very hot topic in research actually: for satelites they want to create a cluster of small satelites who work together to get the same results as a big 1.. (But as each satelite is an own piece it's much more easy to replace 1). Here everything is build up from the ground on different bots to work together; yet this is the weak link in those satelite systems and has yet to be ironed out.

 

So what are you suggesting? The only way Abyss works in that regard is because they added an element of danger with the possibility that you will lose all your items?

 

How will you emulate that feeling without jeopardising the actual content?

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Take runecrafting for example: the very best method in 2006 was using the abbys.. ALso here player interaction played a huge role (you had to evade pkers): this simplistic player interaction actually made bots having a much more difficult time.. There were hardly any runecrafting bots (while double nats was by far the best money-maker in whole runescape back then).

Erm... Whether there were pkers or not, if a bot works through the abbys, it would work anyway...

 

 

I'm not saying that everything should be working together, however if you dislike user interaction: why the hell you playing an MMO?

Because the game actually allows for solo gameplay, and older players like that to avoid a certain type of (let's call them) "younger" player?

And what is it you're suggesting, exactly?

 

 

But what about my second suggestion: make it so that "granite power mining" isn't the best method to train mining, and that new methods constantly are unlocked every few levels.. That would mean that for each few levels another bot has to be written!

Wrong. First, granite is among the best, but not "the" best method of training minine.

Second, just because there are new methods available does not mean people are forced to use them.

 

 

Even if you control all bots it's hard to coordinate them.. Sure it might work on a small scale but what about big scale user interaction..

You're suggesting everything any player does hás to be done with someone else, like a worse form of dungeoneering? I thought you just said you didn't? :???:

Still, if you did, that's about as ridiculous as the claims you make in your signature (in my humble opinion).

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I'm happy to see that Jagex is finally putting their foot down on this issue.

 

It's too bad we can't mow down all those bots with an M2 Browning machine gun. :P

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Take runecrafting for example: the very best method in 2006 was using the abbys.. ALso here player interaction played a huge role (you had to evade pkers): this simplistic player interaction actually made bots having a much more difficult time.. There were hardly any runecrafting bots (while double nats was by far the best money-maker in whole runescape back then).

Erm... Whether there were pkers or not, if a bot works through the abbys, it would work anyway...

Yet bots DID NOT work through the abbys.. Because if you couldn't evade pkers efficiently (which wasn't hard, however it required some skill nonetheles) it wasn't efficient. There is no 1 way to evade a pker, pking styles evolved over time and you had to constantly adapt.

 

I'm not saying that everything should be working together, however if you dislike user interaction: why the hell you playing an MMO?

Because the game actually allows for solo gameplay, and older players like that to avoid a certain type of (let's call them) "younger" player?

Question remains: why do you play an MMO over a single player game with online highscore tables & lots of DLCs?

 

But what about my second suggestion: make it so that "granite power mining" isn't the best method to train mining, and that new methods constantly are unlocked every few levels.. That would mean that for each few levels another bot has to be written!

Wrong. First, granite is among the best, but not "the" best method of training minine.

Second, just because there are new methods available does not mean people are forced to use them.

Of course not: however if new methods are generally better, it means that either bots have to adapt a lot of times (which is difficult for the bot writer, and buys jagex time to ban accounts) or it means bots stick to the easy-to-bot-low-level-methods. In both cases the effects of bots get lowered a lot!

 

 

Even if you control all bots it's hard to coordinate them.. Sure it might work on a small scale but what about big scale user interaction..

You're suggesting everything any player does hás to be done with someone else, like dungeoneering?

That's about as ridiculous as the claims you make in your signature (in my humble opinion).

Good job bringing an ad hominem fallacy to the discussion (besides my claim is based on the simple fact that for both studies I follow (aerospace engineering & technical mathematics) the average time a student takes over his study is 7.5 years). But anyways: user interaction does not imply having to work together.. It just means that the style of the game is different from a single player game.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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I'd rather them get off their asses and make an appearance in the actual game getting some of a FEW bots, rather then sitting back counting their irl cash piles and banning NONE. By this point its common knowledge the "Jagex botbuster 9001" was rubbish, so im just happy we're actually having proof of them banning at least 1 bot.

 

Crying about the bot situation does nothing.

 

Be part of the solution, don't add to the problem.

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Take runecrafting for example: the very best method in 2006 was using the abbys.. ALso here player interaction played a huge role (you had to evade pkers): this simplistic player interaction actually made bots having a much more difficult time.. There were hardly any runecrafting bots (while double nats was by far the best money-maker in whole runescape back then).

Erm... Whether there were pkers or not, if a bot works through the abbys, it would work anyway...

Yet bots DID NOT work through the abbys.. Because if you couldn't evade pkers efficiently (which wasn't hard, however it required some skill nonetheles) it wasn't efficient. There is no 1 way to evade a pker, pking styles evolved over time and you had to constantly adapt.

 

Ok, so you want most of gameplay to be either directly cooperative or antagonistic, cool.

 

I'm not saying that everything should be working together, however if you dislike user interaction: why the hell you playing an MMO?

Because the game actually allows for solo gameplay, and older players like that to avoid a certain type of (let's call them) "younger" player?

Question remains: why do you play an MMO over a single player game with online highscore tables & lots of DLCs?

 

Because I enjoy this world, its storyline and its mechanics, I have what I'd call some emotional attachment to my character, and I have developed some social bonds through this game that I'd prefer not to lose. That does not mean I want to DO EVERYTHING with someone else. I prefer a gamestyle where I pay little attention and watch videos or I grind while chatting; not a big fan of coordinating strategies with other people. To me user interaction in this game is largely just communication, anything beyond that I tend to avoid.

 

But what about my second suggestion: make it so that "granite power mining" isn't the best method to train mining, and that new methods constantly are unlocked every few levels.. That would mean that for each few levels another bot has to be written!

Wrong. First, granite is among the best, but not "the" best method of training minine.

Second, just because there are new methods available does not mean people are forced to use them.

Of course not: however if new methods are generally better, it means that either bots have to adapt a lot of times (which is difficult for the bot writer, and buys jagex time to ban accounts) or it means bots stick to the easy-to-bot-low-level-methods. In both cases the effects of bots get lowered a lot!

 

I'm ok with this suggestion, but the development time this would take in between everything else they're trying to do will be years. You're not just talking about a simple updated way to train: for each new training method you want different mechanics to trip up the bots, not to mention you'd be wanting ~20 different and efficient ways to train pretty much every skill.

 

Even if you control all bots it's hard to coordinate them.. Sure it might work on a small scale but what about big scale user interaction..

You're suggesting everything any player does hás to be done with someone else, like dungeoneering?

That's about as ridiculous as the claims you make in your signature (in my humble opinion).

Good job bringing an ad hominem fallacy to the discussion (besides my claim is based on the simple fact that for both studies I follow, aerospace engineering & technical mathematics, the average time a student takes over his study is 7.5 years). But anyways: user interaction does not imply having to work together.. It just means that the style of the game is different from a single player game.

Once again I'd like to hear a suggestion from you that isn't either directly cooperative, a la Dungeoneering, or directly antagonistic, a la abyss rcing/pking.

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Yet bots DID NOT work through the abbys.. Because if you couldn't evade pkers efficiently (which wasn't hard, however it required some skill nonetheles) it wasn't efficient. There is no 1 way to evade a pker, pking styles evolved over time and you had to constantly adapt.

Not every world had pkers there, and there were other methods than the abbys applied to craft nature runes.

A bot could easily use the general store swapping method, which was entirely bottable too.

 

 

Question remains: why do you play an MMO over a single player game with online highscore tables & lots of DLCs?

Perhaps because they like RuneScape over a random single player game that doesn't have the same solo gameplay RuneScape offers? Why does that matter anyway? Just because this game is classified as an MMO does not mean you're not allowed to solo it.

 

 

Of course not: however if new methods are generally better, it means that either bots have to adapt a lot of times (which is difficult for the bot writer, and buys jagex time to ban accounts) or it means bots stick to the easy-to-bot-low-level-methods. In both cases the effects of bots get lowered a lot!

Not really... The methods currently available work just fine for bots, and to whatever decent scripters make the current evasive bot clients it's not that hard to make a bot move somewhere else too. Ever seen the amount of bots in the Living Rock Caverns? If anything that increased the amount of botting miners. Also, how would it "give Jagex time to ban accounts" if a bot scripter is working on a new script? It's not like botting will stop while they do this.. and why would the amount of bots be lowered if they don't use the fastest xp/hr method to bot? It only means they level a little slower than they otherwise might. :rolleyes:

 

Ooh, and what is it you're suggesting, exactly?

 

 

Good job bringing an ad hominem fallacy to the discussion (besides my claim is based on the simple fact that for both studies I follow (aerospace engineering & technical mathematics) the average time a student takes over his study is 7.5 years).

It was a comparison, not an argument. >,>

Besides, any study for which 3 years stand for a bachelor and 4 for a master should be possible to complete in that time.

Still, if you wish to discuss how your view on that particular topic is a little over the top and flawed when comparing it to other studies, I'd be happy to do that over PMs. Besides, considering the Dutch state is ensuring that second study you're doing is completely free by paying for it, why are you complaining anyway? You should be grateful they're paying your entire second study, ensured a huge discount on your first, and are giving you monthly allowance to live off of too... In most countries people actually pay for their own education... and those countries' peoples don't consist of illiterate primitives, so why would we?

 

 

Feel free to pm me if you wish to answer that. xD

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The above number will always just be a fraction of the number that we take action against behind the scenes using our own, secret systems.

 

We can link accounts in multiple ways - which again, we cannot go into - and people who think that they can get away with having 'secret' accounts will be very sorely disappointed.

 

I am SO glad that they have their "super secret" (read: "non-existent") method of bot detection. Wow -- we're all SO impressed over hear, I can tell you! It's like, you got this whole "secret" thing that's, you know, secret and uh ... well ... :unsure:

 

Apparently, with every 100 bots "captured" each Jmod & Pmod will be awarded a super-secret-decoder-ring ... :rolleyes:

 

It would be idiotic for them to describe their systems. They are a trap for bots, letting them know where the trap is and how it works would make it less effective.

 

Uh huh -- sure. And describing how Santa Clause manages to make it all the way around the world in one night, distributing toys to good children all over the planet, doesn't make IT any less effective -- or believable for that matter.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Sorry but your example makes no sense whatsoever to me. They don't keep their systems secret to make them more believable, they do it to stop bot makers from creating their systems around their detection systems. Some may already be able to and experienced bot makers may already know the in's and out's of their system, but many also will not which keeps it effective.

 

Jagex are in a very sticky situation that is very difficult to get out of. I doubt there are many options at all to remove them without heavily impacting on the real players of the game. They are basically stuck between a rock and hard place, bots or ranters at game changes.

 

Sophisticated bots are incredibly hard to get rid of through detection systems as they can be programmed to act very human-like. This is why they do need active in-game banning through things like this event-type thing.

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Once again I'd like to hear a suggestion from you that isn't either directly cooperative, a la Dungeoneering, or directly antagonistic, a la abyss rcing/pking.

 

Let's look at the root of the problem. There are 2 "things" that make a game botteable & probable to bot:

-First of all the action which have to happen have to be "easy" and repetitive.

-Secondly a person has to be willing to bot: so the achievements are worth more than the path.

 

Now to battle botting you actually have to adress these two points. The second point is hardly adresseable by jagex, it requires a mentality change not only in the game but in real life too. The first point is hence the only option we (jagex) has direct influence over. The problem with a single player game such as runescape is that it will always be terribly easy & repetitive. The game follows very easily predicteable patterns and there's hardly any adaption/generation in the different actors.

So to prevent people from botting on mass scale the best methods have to require user interaction; it's simply as far as I can see the only test where a bot can't do something a human can.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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are pissed at Jagex for outright lying about their ability to detect bots.

:thumbup:

 

They can detect bots, they ban thousands every day.

Yes, they claim to have. I've cleaned Sparc Mac, got 374 Divine Sigil drops, my real RSN is Zezima, and I've soloed Nex with nothing more then a bronze crossbow.

 

How come I can report bots until I'm blue in the face at Soul Wars, and yet day after day those same bots are still there. And if they do detect and ban any bots, the bots are obviously written by some script kiddy who can't take 5 second to make the bot undetectable. Even the most obvious bots go months and months and are still playing... And Jagex even has it's players helping them by reporting them. Still unbanned.

 

Checklist to beat Jagex's detection system:

Random sleep/delay values - Check.

Slightly randomize click coordinates - Check.

Random click colors - Check.

Allow the bot to make "on-purpose mistakes" - Check.

Realistic/human-like mouse movements - Check.

Beat Jagex's bot detection system - Done.

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1st, mod Chrisso - ... is a rather a small pawn of the community team - he was the one who had to control the wildywyrms for Americans when the other jmods were asleep and deal with random "community events" jagex put up.

 

And I see he has chosen his words very carefully - accounts GATHERED - 12,495, well I'd expected that much if you just go through the mining guild and sorc garden on every world. But how many will get a perm BAN? Possibly zero. 10-20% wil get a flimsy 14 day ban with no other consequences. And another random but probably small fraction will get a rollback. And the rest might just get away with it all even after being "caught."

 

It's a good and a positive step toward a real zero tolerance policy on bots that they're finally going in game and finding the bots manually. Their "secret" system clearly doesn't work well anymore. This is what they should have done instead of solely relying on their "advanced bot detection systems". But here's the next major test - will they actually take harsher action and BAN some bots? If not, all this is just more talk and PR to soothe what's left of their legit player base. They have their ban reinstatement thing in now, so if they really perm ban a ton of bots, they can still profit off them by charging the reinstatement $ after rolling back the account. It's still better than letting the bots just letting bots walk free while taking their subscription money.

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Jagex's macro detection software isn't 'non-existant' rather it's just a passive system requiring people to flag acounts for detection through reporting. I've been smithing in W7 for the last while and whenever I see a FM bot I report it and from what I've seen, most accounts are rolled back / banned within 48h (yes I keep tabs on them via highscores).

One such account I found botting and I reported them. A few hours later I saw the same account under a different display name still botting. Again, reported. The next morning I did my daily check-up on some bots, low and behold, they were not on the highscores anymore.

So while Jagex isn't doing a lot to get rid of bots, they're still far from doing nothing. The only 'problems' there are is that the system requires players to report the bots, and the punishments are too low.

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Jagex's macro detection software isn't 'non-existant' rather it's just a passive system requiring people to flag acounts for detection through reporting. I've been smithing in W7 for the last while and whenever I see a FM bot I report it and from what I've seen, most accounts are rolled back / banned within 48h (yes I keep tabs on them via highscores).

One such account I found botting and I reported them. A few hours later I saw the same account under a different display name still botting. Again, reported. The next morning I did my daily check-up on some bots, low and behold, they were not on the highscores anymore.

So while Jagex isn't doing a lot to get rid of bots, they're still far from doing nothing. The only 'problems' there are is that the system requires players to report the bots, and the punishments are too low.

 

 

Just wondering, do your reports have priority due to you being a PMod? I've done the same thing as you, reporting FM bots that I've encountered. After monitoring these bots for a few days, I rarely if ever see any action taken against them (1 out of 25 reported disappeared off the highscores).

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Just wondering, do your reports have priority due to you being a PMod? I've done the same thing as you, reporting FM bots that I've encountered. After monitoring these bots for a few days, I rarely if ever see any action taken against them (1 out of 25 reported disappeared off the highscores).

Actually, I'm not sure. PMod reports for things like scamming are read first, but I assumed that since macro reports went through an automated system, it was just put in the queue. I guess I was wrong...

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I've reported over 100 of bots at the living rock caverns...

 

 

one day I noted all bots I reported (though I admit there might've been some collateral damage, however dieing there, coming back immediatelly - never talking, and "following the crowd" seems very like a bot to me), and after a week of the 100+ I reported 0 were removed from highscores.

First they came to fishing

and I didn't speak out because I wasn't fishing

 

Then they came to the yews

and I didn't speak out because I didn't cut yews

 

Then they came for the ores

and I didn't speak out because I didn't collect ores

 

Then they came for me

and there was no one left to speak out for me.

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Once again I'd like to hear a suggestion from you that isn't either directly cooperative, a la Dungeoneering, or directly antagonistic, a la abyss rcing/pking.

 

Let's look at the root of the problem. There are 2 "things" that make a game botteable & probable to bot:

-First of all the action which have to happen have to be "easy" and repetitive.

-Secondly a person has to be willing to bot: so the achievements are worth more than the path.

 

Now to battle botting you actually have to adress these two points. The second point is hardly adresseable by jagex, it requires a mentality change not only in the game but in real life too. The first point is hence the only option we (jagex) has direct influence over. The problem with a single player game such as runescape is that it will always be terribly easy & repetitive. The game follows very easily predicteable patterns and there's hardly any adaption/generation in the different actors.

So to prevent people from botting on mass scale the best methods have to require user interaction; it's simply as far as I can see the only test where a bot can't do something a human can.

Ok, I get all that, but you still didn't provide an example of interaction that didn't fit into the two categories. Why I wouldn't want to have the interaction be in either of those is with direct cooperation you usually have to deal with idiots and elitism, and with direct antagonizng comes the whole skillers vs. pkers or crashing mentality; and all those add up to is just more segregating and conflict in our community.

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Dragon: 9 Draconic Visages, 7 Shield Left Halves, 20 Dragon Boots, 40 Dragon Med Helms, 8 Dragon Platelegs, 6 Dragon Spears, 20 Dragon Daggers, 5 Dragon Plateskirts, 1 Dragon Chainbody, 63 Off-hand Dragon Throwing Axes, 19 Dragon Longswords, 27 Dragon Maces, 1 Dragon Ward
Treasure Trails: Saradomin Full Helm, Ranger Boots, Rune Body (t), Saradomin Vambraces, Various God Pages
Misc:1 Onyx,1 Ahrim's Hood, 1 Guthan's Chainskirt, 1 Demon Slayer Boots

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modchrisso112.jpg <--Full ss as you can see the time is 4:33pm

 

liemuch.jpg <--Mod Chrisso was suppose to talk to me, because I had a problem. Now it's 2hrs since he said that. Lie much?

 

My question is why a certain bot that botted for months has got away with it, and when I brought it to Jagex's attention I got kicked out of his clanchat.

Lisa <3 Matthew

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My account stats on Top, Matt's account stats on Bottom

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Last time I checked, p-mod reports didn't get priority where macroing was concerned. They got sent to the same detection-system.

 

Then again, this was from ~1 year ago, so it could've changed since then.

 

@Knife: Most of the ranks in those j-mod clan-chats have no sense of humor or patience, due to the amount of genuine trolls they see. Innocents get caught in the crossfire all the time.

 

@Ring: What would you consider popular botting locations? The flax fields? Jagex could ban all the bots there, and they could all be back within under an hour, presuming the owners are on top of things.

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I've reported over 100 of bots at the living rock caverns...

 

 

one day I noted all bots I reported (though I admit there might've been some collateral damage, however dieing there, coming back immediatelly - never talking, and "following the crowd" seems very like a bot to me), and after a week of the 100+ I reported 0 were removed from highscores.

 

Someone who "follows the crowd" at LRC and doesn't talk isn't anywhere close to being reasonable criteria for reporting as a botter. All normal players do those things! You may think that dying is cause to show that somebody is a bot, but when I mine while watching TV, I can occasionally take 200-300 damage in total before I notice and move away. For some low-level skillers, that's more than enough to kill them.

 

You are the reason that Jagex ignores so many reports. It's almost impossible for them to filter out the garbage reports from the good ones. Frankly, your ability to report for botting should be removed from your report abuse menu.

Alphanos

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The current number is: 15,774

It's worth noting that these accounts are not immediately being banned; they are just being thrown into the investigations grist mill (along with other accounts that Jagex can link to them). The accounts in question might or might not end up being sanctioned.

PvP is not for me

In the 3rd Year of the Boycott
Real-world money saved since FT/W: Hundreds of Dollars
Real-world time saved since FT/W: Thousands of Hours

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