Efficiency Trolls

[All_Is_Great]

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

That thread is a perfect example of why sometimes I feel "efficiency trolls" should have the quotation marks removed.

 

 

wut.....?

One gave gave honest advice, the OP declined it and gave a reason as to why, which is fine. The original advice giver responded saying he didn't understand the decline, and why, which is fine.

 

And then 2 people jumped on him for being an efficiency troll....

Not once did the advice giver troll, insult, instigate flame, or patronize anyone in the thread.

 

Nice try though.

 

I see one person repeatedly asking why OP wants to charge orbs by himself. I see two people giving genuine advice that actually answers OP's question. I see another person making snide comments and I see one mod trying to stop it before it got out of hand. I see the OP twice trying to explain why he wanted to do it his way, instead just getting the whole "your way is stupid" thing.

[Avatar200]

Personally, Bladewing gave me good advice and he wasnt mean or anything in his posts for me..so I'm kinda lost on the issue there..

 

OT: I feel that tip.it had always been an elitist's forum. But to me, that is the reason I've always stayed with tip.it. I've been playing on and off for years, and whenever I come back, tip.it forum is my first stop. Why? Information. Good, solid information. The so called efficiency trolls, if some wish to put it that way...

[Levon_]

Bladewing was never intentionally mean to people

 

He gave good advice, but was just extremely blunt about it. Which many people enjoyed

[Soma2035]

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

That thread is a perfect example of why sometimes I feel "efficiency trolls" should have the quotation marks removed.

 

 

wut.....?

One gave gave honest advice, the OP declined it and gave a reason as to why, which is fine. The original advice giver responded saying he didn't understand the decline, and why, which is fine.

 

And then 2 people jumped on him for being an efficiency troll....

Not once did the advice giver troll, insult, instigate flame, or patronize anyone in the thread.

 

Nice try though.

 

I see one person repeatedly asking why OP wants to charge orbs by himself. I see two people giving genuine advice that actually answers OP's question. I see another person making snide comments and I see one mod trying to stop it before it got out of hand. I see the OP twice trying to explain why he wanted to do it his way, instead just getting the whole "your way is stupid" thing.

 

Hello, I'm 90 Strength and I would like to get to 99. However, I will only train on God Wars bosses, and only with an Adamant Scimitar set to "Defensive." What would be the fastest way for me to do this?

 

Sometimes, a question is ridiculous enough that there is no good advice beyond "don't do it."

[All_Is_Great]

What do I mean you may ask? Threads like this one right here.

I dare you just to read the first 10 posts, and hopefully you'll see what I mean.

 

That thread is a perfect example of why sometimes I feel "efficiency trolls" should have the quotation marks removed.

 

 

wut.....?

One gave gave honest advice, the OP declined it and gave a reason as to why, which is fine. The original advice giver responded saying he didn't understand the decline, and why, which is fine.

 

And then 2 people jumped on him for being an efficiency troll....

Not once did the advice giver troll, insult, instigate flame, or patronize anyone in the thread.

 

Nice try though.

 

I see one person repeatedly asking why OP wants to charge orbs by himself. I see two people giving genuine advice that actually answers OP's question. I see another person making snide comments and I see one mod trying to stop it before it got out of hand. I see the OP twice trying to explain why he wanted to do it his way, instead just getting the whole "your way is stupid" thing.

 

Hello, I'm 90 Strength and I would like to get to 99. However, I will only train on God Wars bosses, and only with an Adamant Scimitar set to "Defensive." What would be the fastest way for me to do this?

 

Sometimes, a question is ridiculous enough that there is no good advice beyond "don't do it."

 

Great example there. Totally the same as the topic in question. :thumbup:

[Tim]

Personally I gave up most advice from people as at times it turns into a war between whats better. Only time so far I've asked was for my pure and training range to see if there was any other alternative to my style but there wasnt.

[Soma2035]

Hello, I'm 90 Strength and I would like to get to 99. However, I will only train on God Wars bosses, and only with an Adamant Scimitar set to "Defensive." What would be the fastest way for me to do this?

 

Sometimes, a question is ridiculous enough that there is no good advice beyond "don't do it."

 

Great example there. Totally the same as the topic in question. :thumbup:

 

1) Pick a goal.

2) Attach senseless, irrational, and asinine requirements to the goal, that do nothing but impede progress.

3) ??? (Otherwise known as ask help & advice).

4) Don't profit, because you followed the worse advice possibly offered in the thread.

 

Oh, and in response to the people who would inevitably insist that "he just wants to do something different!" or what not,

 

[hide][/hide]

[Andy]

Hello, I'm 90 Strength and I would like to get to 99. However, I will only train on God Wars bosses, and only with an Adamant Scimitar set to "Defensive." What would be the fastest way for me to do this?

 

Sometimes, a question is ridiculous enough that there is no good advice beyond "don't do it."

 

Great example there. Totally the same as the topic in question. :thumbup:

 

1) Pick a goal.

2) Attach senseless, irrational, and asinine requirements to the goal, that do nothing but impede progress.

3) ??? (Otherwise known as ask help & advice).

4) Don't profit, because you followed the worse advice possibly offered in the thread.

 

Oh, and in response to the people who would inevitably insist that "he just wants to do something different!" or what not,

 

[hide]http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/unique_by_krash.jpg[/hide]

Yep. When you go to help and advice, you should expect to get help and advice that actually makes sense rather than "oh yes i think training on gwd bosses with an addy scimitar would be good- you should use normal str pots to save money!"

[jimmy_jim]

As said by Rainy_Day in another thread earlier today:

 

This topic isn't for discussing other members bans, especially when you do not know the entire facts.

 

The same applies here, so that's enough, thanks ;)

[Nifflin]

*raises hand*

+1

[SirIzenhime]

I see one person repeatedly asking why OP wants to charge orbs by himself. I see two people giving genuine advice that actually answers OP's question. I see another person making snide comments and I see one mod trying to stop it before it got out of hand. I see the OP twice trying to explain why he wanted to do it his way, instead just getting the whole "your way is stupid" thing.

 

Wkw, the person I think is giving the best efficient advice, and I assume you think is making snide comments

[hide]

Kill waterfiends for water orbs, and make water bstaffs

 

Burst rock lobs or slay for 99 mage.

 

Really, making air orbs is slow and a really bad way to get magic xp.

 

An honest answer. Maging rocklobs/killing water fiends is more efficient then charging air orbs to make staffs with.

He wasn't rude, snide, trollish, simply answering a question.

The OP declined his advice, gave his reason as to why he did, and all was fine with that.

 

Its not the fastest, its the most efficient use of your time.

 

Now, if you say "I'm going to do 99 mage. what should I alch" I would tell you get out.

 

Seriously. Train fast, spend time you save on making money. Then spend the money on training more

 

wkw's reply to OPs decline

Aside from the alching = get out (which has very little relevance, and wasn't even directed at anyone as an insult, merely an example), nothing snide again, nothing trollish, simply giving advice based on efficiency as a whole and explaining further his original advice.

 

No more posts were made after that by Wkw.

[/hide]

 

Your hero mod trying to stop it.

[hide]

Not everyone is an efficiency freak. Some people like to play the game how they want. Quit trying to sway him when he has repeatedly said he wants to train a specific way.

 

Calls wkw an efficiency freak after two simple honest answers. Also says wkw is trying to sway him. wkw, was simply giving an answer, he was not trying to force OP to do it his way, simple informing him of what was efficient to do and why he disagreed with OP declining his advice.

[/hide]

 

Aside from AHappyBunyip's random reply, which seemed to have been ignored

[hide]

If you enjoy repeatedly jogging to an obelisk and back again, followed by spending a few mins waiting for some glowing glass balls to stick to some wooden sticks, then fair enough. Go for it. However, most people would assume that people derive their fun from training these skills in the smallest amount of time possible in order to make money to afford gear used for killing Nex and co. You know, stuff that actually gets a bit of adrenaline pumping.

 

If you, against all reason, enjoy the actual act of grinding, then just do whatever suits you. It doesn't sound like you want your mind changed.

[/hide]

The most inflammatory comment made that thread was "efficiency freak"

I see no one calling the OP stupid, anywhere in the first page of that thread. So could you please tell me where you are getting your conclusion from?

[Kimberly]

It's equally inflammatory though to persist on badgering your opinion when the TC has clearly stated what he wants though isn't it? For what reaction will it get but anything negative? A mod intervening seems like a good idea at a point like that, even if how it was handled was poorly, because the person beating on was going against the TC's express wishes beyond simply suggesting a better alternative. It seems like a REALLY poor example for the change wanted to be seen in H&A, and it wasn't the fault of any single person in that topic.

[SirIzenhime]

he posted twice...I hardly call that badgering/beating on.

[Kimberly]

he posted twice...I hardly call that badgering/beating on.

 

After having a precise question (which is some sort of miracle in itself in h&A...) presented by the topic creator and being declined once for that particular suggestion, you can see what sort of affect pursuing that same suggestion had on derailing the thread though. It doesn't make anyone a bad person, by no means should they be vilified for it, but it's not exactly helping the process of gaining advice and the trend the thread had taken showed no sign of stopping.

[SirIzenhime]

it showed no signs of anything....it was only 5 posts in......

wkw did NOTHING to derail ANYTHING in that thread.

[Kimberly]

it showed no signs of anything....it was only 5 posts in......

wkw did NOTHING to derail ANYTHING in that thread.

 

I did not say it was the fault of any one person, just that he persisted when it should've been left be after the refusal and at that point, don't you think? By then the tone of the thread was set. And multiple other people jumped in and made a tolerable situation far worse than it ever should've been.

 

EDIT: Sorry for the last minute edit.

[essiw]

As said by Rainy_Day in another thread earlier today:

 

This topic isn't for discussing other members bans, especially when you do not know the entire facts.

 

The same applies here, so that's enough, thanks ;)

 

If I may add, please keep the posts about how you feel Danq (or any other mod) is doing his job as mod in this thread http://forum.tip.it/topic/291488-tif-is-bit-overermoderrated/ or do it with PM's. I find reading personal attacks (I think they are, you may not think so) not fun, at least not in the topic were they are not needed.

 

Also I see people getting offended by other people using the word efficient in an other way then they use it and think it should be used, it is just a word.

[essiw]

I think there are really two sides two this that keep going back and forth.

 

The noobs who ask for help but dont want to be told not to use their addy daggers at GWD as their method for training strength. Then you get the other extreme who say that for any training you need a CR, turmoil, overloads, etc etc etc. Extreme overkill and expense for slight gains in xp per hour, while they can show it IS more effiicent it also can be unreasonable amount of time investment for the same noob who doesnt know that Godswords arent a great training weapon. This gets to be the intellectual battle of who deserves rights over the other. The noob shouldnt have to hear good advice that he didnt ask for, or the efficient pro shouldnt not tell the noob advice that could potentially help him or her because he didnt ask

I think the problem is the people that are flaming/spamming other people. And the TS being rude to the people that gave advice that he didn't wanted.

[dargonhuman]

For example, people keep telling me that the best way to train Slayer is to get tasks from the highest level Slayer Master in order to get the fastest xp rate. I disagree because I can't justify spending that much money on food and gear just to train a skill I despise simply to do a quest or two. I'd rather go for the easier tasks that I don't have to invest any money or food into, even if it takes a little longer. Sure, I could go to Vannaka or Sumona, fight some dragons or killerwatts, spend a couple thousand gp on food (not to mention wasting time going back and forth from a bank to the nearest training spot), or I could skip all that, do a few more tasks of goblins and banshees and keep my cash to buy supplies for skills I actually enjoy, such as smithing or crafting. Personally, I find that to be far more efficient than simply getting the highest xp/hr.

:-|

 

You either don't know what efficient means, or don't have any understanding of opportunity cost whatsoever (and, by the sound of your post, you definitely don't want to learn anything, so I won't bother explaining it unless you ask). Needless to say, asking for help from knowledgeable players isn't going to help you at all, because you're convinced that your way of doing things is correct when in fact your method is inferior for reasons you can't be bothered to understand. That doesn't make the advice given to you bad, it makes you closed minded.

 

No, I'm pointing out that there are other definitions of efficient that go beyond someone's spreadsheet. For me, saving money in exchange of a lower xp/hr is more efficient than using all that food. My definition of efficient may not match yours, but that doesn't make it less viable. I'm not closed-minded because I have tried the max xp/hr method, found it to be too expensive AND just as long as the "slower" method due to the extra bank trips and decided that it wasn't the most efficient method for me. That doesn't make it wrong in general, just not right for me. If it works for you, then great. My way works for me, and whle it may not match your definition of efficient, it doesn't make it inefficient. It's just a different kind of efficiency.

[Sylpheed]

I think there are really two sides two this that keep going back and forth.

 

The noobs who ask for help but dont want to be told not to use their addy daggers at GWD as their method for training strength. Then you get the other extreme who say that for any training you need a CR, turmoil, overloads, etc etc etc. Extreme overkill and expense for slight gains in xp per hour, while they can show it IS more effiicent it also can be unreasonable amount of time investment for the same noob who doesnt know that Godswords arent a great training weapon. This gets to be the intellectual battle of who deserves rights over the other. The noob shouldnt have to hear good advice that he didnt ask for, or the efficient pro shouldnt not tell the noob advice that could potentially help him or her because he didnt ask

 

This is pretty much it. I myself, try to be as efficient as possible in any training situation. When I see the way some of the well known efficient people on this forum talk it's just asking for trouble.

 

Whilst I agree and believe that the efficient individuals have the intent of helping people, they way in which they do it just provokes arguments.

 

Instead of immediately telling someone in H&A that there is a more efficient way to train (insert skill here) why not just ASK, not TELL them if they want to know a faster way to do what they're doing.

[Youmu]

Look, can we just put an end to all this? -.-

 

Fun is subjective. One may find clicking the same rock over and over again fun. Another may consider getting good amounts of experience increases in a span of time is fun. It doesn't matter if someone finds any particular thing to do fun. There is no definite answer to fun so might as well forget about it when talking about a game where you GRIND your skills for max rates.

 

Efficiency however is objective. It doesn't matter if you find method A to be more preferable over method B, what matters is that method B is OBJECTIVELY better than method A. Fun and other opinionated factors does NOT come into play!

 

If people learn to face facts and figures without all these kinds of disagreements, we wouldn't even be arguing over this. It doesn't matter if you find something to be fun - what matters is that Word of God is there and you just need to accept that.

[Sylpheed]

Look, can we just put an end to all this? -.-

 

Fun is subjective. One may find clicking the same rock over and over again fun. Another may consider getting good amounts of experience increases in a span of time is fun. It doesn't matter if someone finds any particular thing to do fun. There is no definite answer to fun so might as well forget about it when talking about a game where you GRIND your skills for max rates.

 

Efficiency however is objective. It doesn't matter if you find method A to be more preferable over method B, what matters is that method B is OBJECTIVELY better than method A. Fun and other opinionated factors does NOT come into play!

 

If people learn to face facts and figures without all these kinds of disagreements, we wouldn't even be arguing over this. It doesn't matter if you find something to be fun - what matters is that Word of God is there and you just need to accept that.

 

This is probably the biggest troll post in this thread unless it's sarcasm (which I really hope it is)

[Youmu]

This is probably the biggest troll post in this thread unless it's sarcasm (which I really hope it is)

Meh, I'm just tired of all these people arguing fun vs efficiency and all these anti-efficiency trolls. <_<

 

Haters be hatin', I guess.

 

EDIT: I'm not telling people that they can't have fun while playing. My point is that while playing efficient can be fun, playing fun doesn't always mean efficient.

[Quyneax]

It should be noted that Sonic did not say that you have to live by the Word of God, just that it's there ;).

[Sylpheed]

This is probably the biggest troll post in this thread unless it's sarcasm (which I really hope it is)

Meh, I'm just tired of all these people arguing fun vs efficiency and all these anti-efficiency trolls. <_<

 

Haters be hatin', I guess.

 

EDIT: I'm not telling people that they can't have fun while playing. My point is that while playing efficient can be fun, playing fun doesn't always mean efficient.

 

But playing efficiently doesn't always mean fun. There is no right or wrong way to play this game.