11th June 2009 - Macro-detection systems update

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

whoops, sorry about the spam earlier. heres my idea.

 

 

 

like yard said, yes they probably cant catch every single botter, though the majority of them are pretty dumb. like the computer prescision ones. but ive seen bots that dont make perfect clicks, that mess up their routines once in a while (after going through a loop, as those 'mistakes' are programmed in, but only like one per loop). whem im mining, i make plenty of mistakes. i click pickup on rocks, i click empty rocks, i double mine, i get sidetracked and dont go through the rotation so i wait for the next spawn in the same spot, etc. i dont know if one can program all of that into a private macro, and if they could, theyd have to make it a really long one, or else if those mistakes come up every so often in a particular sequence, then you can assume like 90% that they are botting....

 

 

 

Jard... with a J.

[Fools_Taco]

Stuff like this scares the hell out of me. I wonder how many false positives they get with their bot detection software. I hate the fact that you cant appeal it. Its like as soon as some robot software thinks you are cheating your are banned without any human interaction.

 

 

 

What if you got flagged as a bot and dident cheat?

 

 

 

 

 

This system is flawed.

[Utopianflame]

I cant say i'm particulary pleased about the no appeal business, I mean its not like Jagex have never banned people for things they didnt do.

[fallen_snipa]

i love this idea...the pic of the mod banning that guy...thats ownage. About the update im happy to heard it hopefully there will be more resources for all of us \

[Hajutze]

i love this idea...the pic of the mod banning that guy...thats ownage. About the update im happy to heard it hopefully there will be more resources for all of us \

 

No matter how I look at it I can see it the other way around - less resources for all of us (at least in G.E.) :?

[Will H]

Stuff like this scares the hell out of me. I wonder how many false positives they get with their bot detection software. I hate the fact that you cant appeal it. Its like as soon as some robot software thinks you are cheating your are banned without any human interaction.

 

 

 

What if you got flagged as a bot and dident cheat?

 

 

 

 

 

This system is flawed.

 

I guess they're confident enough to pretty much say that they have a 0% rate of false positives. That's a pretty huge claim right there, but I guess we'll have to wait and see if they can back it up. It also surprises me that they're IP address matching and extending the ban to those accounts. Combine that with the lack of appeal, and it suddenly becomes fairly easy for someone to get someone else's account permanently banned by macroing on the same computer and IP. Erk. :ohnoes:

[Smapla]

i don't remember where, but i read this example somewhere... i'll try to transcribe it as closely to the original as i can remember

 

 

 

 

 

scientists create a device that can 'scan' a person, which with 99% accuracy, can determine if the person is a terrorist. the device also confirms 99% of innocent people as innocent, mis-identifying the other 1% as terrorists. the government decides to use the device to scan all terminals of major transportation, and begins jailing anyone who the device detects as a terrorist.

 

 

 

it sounds great, but let us assume that one in ten thousand people is a terrorist, and we're looking at a population of a million.

 

 

 

that means that 100 of those people are terrorists, and 999,900 are innocent.

 

 

 

99 out of 100 terrorists are detected

 

1 out of 100 innocent people is incorrectly detected

 

 

 

so, 99 terrorists get caught, and 9,999 innocent people are also 'caught'

 

 

 

even if the detector were 99.99% accurate, it'd still falsely identify as many innocent people as terrorists

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

obviously the situation in runescape is a bit different, the key difference being that the ratio of botters to non-botters is much lower than 1:10000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

an alternate perception of jagex's statements could be that their detector only identifies people who exhibit "sure sign" characteristics. that would mean they only detect the simple programs which exhibit inhuman accuracy and repetition. this would mean that people using more advanced programs that do not exhibit 'sure signs' would simply receive no action against them, because of the possibility of banning innocent people.

 

 

 

 

 

appeals need to remain though. there is always the case that someone has their account stolen, and the theif uses programs that either intentionally or unintentionally get the account banned.

[n64jive]

it's just like drug tests. They are so lenient as we don't want to ruin someones career because they ate a poppy seed bagel.

[M0n]

I wonder if this accounts for those auto clicker nubs too? #-o

[miracleman58]

I wonder if this accounts for those auto clicker nubs too? #-o

 

 

 

I was banned for auto clicking almost a year ago, so im sure its still going to work now, Probobly even better now.

[Lordjake]

in a possibly unrelated incident, Lucipher6 (previously ranked in top 3?) is also banned.

[Bauke]

What the hell... I saw that guy posting on the forums a lot :shock: Just wanted to mention here that a maxed out guy got banned, since I found myself rising in rank without overtaking someone in xp, but now I know...

 

 

 

Got to say, this is quite awkward.

 

 

 

Edit: I've seen another high ranked person appeal for him in the high level forum.

[pulli23]

In december last year I was banned twice in a row (without even a day inbetween), for macroing, no reason ever given to me - And appealing was completely fruitless ("we can't give you more information" was the message). - Point is, I always pay a year in advance, so I don't want to risk my money on a faulty system which I have no control over anymore at all!

 

 

 

 

 

Well maybe 10 take another subscription the second I leave: but you know, numbers of subscriptions don't say everything. If Jagex gets known for having poor consumer support (by outsiders) I can tell you very, very many subscriptions are being cancelled. - That's why I said it would be a good case for a consumer organization. (Sadly there aren't really well known ones here that review internet based companies).

[Unknown_Warrior]

I posted about this in the RSOF (God forbid!) and actually, quite swiftly, got some responses from J-mods:

 

 

 

No appeal, eh? Nice little virtual Guantanamo Bay you set up.
 
 
 
What about false positives? What about people whom had their account hijacked for prolonged periods of time and had their hackers operate a macro? Seeing there's no option to appeal, what will you do in those situations? Force the players (assuming they won't get IP banned) to recreate a character to 12.5M xp to justify themselves?
 
 
 
And what of programs that are "robotic" in nature but still require player input? Mousekeys pops to mind. What if you're adept with it (or, as it was intended, rely on it if you have RSI, artritis or similar) and use it for long periods of time (because, let's face it, skilling=grinding)? What will the infallible Macro-detection system tell you?
 
 
 
With kind (and worried) regards,
 
Kris

 
 
 

If you are playing the game within the rules, no action will be taken against you. If you are found to have broken the rules by using a macro program, then action will be taken. We don't take action based on suspicion alone: all instances will be fully investigated.
 
 
 
-French-

 
 
 

I still view that as a vague response.
 
 
 
* What would you do if you DID make a mistake? How will investigation go if you suspect they are, in fact, using a macro?
 
* And, for my personal benefit, what is the stance towards Mousekeys and sorts?
 
 
 
Please, don't beat around the bush on these two (three).
 
 
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Kris

 
 
 

Due to our rather strong policy against macroing, any macroing offences is checked and double checked by a human member of staff. If we issue somebody with a ban for macroing, we are 100% confident that the player was breaking the rules.
 
 
 
If somebody is *genuinely* and *absolutely* certain that there has been a mistake, they will find a number of ways to contact us are still available.
 
 
 
Cheers,
 
 
 
~ MMH ~

 
 
 

Thanks for the swift response. I'm pleased to know it's not a dead-end road in case of severe mistakes.
 
 
 
If it's not too much trouble:
 
 
 
* And, for my personal benefit, what is the stance towards Mousekeys and sorts?
 
 
 
 
 
Thanks heaps,
 
Kris

 
 
 

Mouse keys are fine, they are designed as an accessibility feature built into many OS as standard.
 
 
 
:)
 
 
 
~ MMH ~

 

 

 

QFC: 15-16-854-58962123

 

 

 

The thread is still going well, with intelligent response (God forbid!). I find it quite interesting.

[Kimberly]

I hope they can track auto talkers too. Every (nearly) full member's world I've visited has at least one of them (usually more) advertising those stupid manipulation CC's at the GE. -.-

 

 

 

Here here. I was thinking the same thing. Sometimes I go to the Clan Wars free for all world and all there is in the lobby is autotalkers--which is more disruptive to my gaming experience than the regular autoer who never says a word. '-'

[cruzaar]

Great update, this will hopefully get it through the thick skull of those who cheat that it is unfair and that they deserve a ban.

[1roddad1]

Usually i don't mind bots so long as they stay out of my way. If they are playing Soul Wars or Mining or Cutting a tree that i am, i get VERY annoyed. And what leads to this is noobs who start out macroing and "OMG i made 100k in an hour from nothing! Tank u botz!"

 

 

 

FAIL

[unjustblood]

Anyone else notice the Jmod was carrying a skull banner and all black armor.

 

 

 

Its like their the death squad, coming to find us.

[Jard_Y_Dooku]

Great update, this will hopefully get it through the thick skull of those who cheat that it is unfair and that they deserve a ban.

 

 

 

Thickness of skulls, you say? Hm. This is not a great update as they have made false claims and disallow appeals to players accused of macroing. It's virtually impossible to detect sufficiently sophisticated macros (which are not difficult to make) this will certainly result in false bans. Jagex's "100% certainty" is off by many percent.

[n64jive]

Great update, this will hopefully get it through the thick skull of those who cheat that it is unfair and that they deserve a ban.

 

 

 

Thickness of skulls, you say? Hm. This is not a great update as they have made false claims and disallow appeals to players accused of macroing. It's virtually impossible to detect sufficiently sophisticated macros (which are not difficult to make) this will certainly result in false bans. Jagex's "100% certainty" is off by many percent.

 

 

 

So they lied..they know, you and I know it, what difference does it make? Andrew Gower isn't a saint, and is MMH or MMG or w/e his name is. Nor the rest of the staff. I'd say take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

As for worrying about the security of your account, I'd say worry about it when it becomes an issue that effects you (or your close friends).

 

 

 

Just remember if it can be secured, it can be cracked. If it can be automated, it can be detected, and if it can be built, it can be destroyed. But like you said, unless Jagex had someway of knowing your account was macroing(ie, they were looking for it), there is no system that is going to be able to skillfully tell the difference between a well-programmed macro, and an ordinary human. (I think there key is log-in...I bet many macro's that detect a log off don't even worry about "humanising" the log-in...

[mister_moocky]

Now, how about a detector for AFKers? 30 minutes log-in and no clicks = auto logged off please?

 

Someone might be talking to a friend or fishing. You can easily go up to 30 minutes without clicking at lower fishing levels whilst trying to fish sharks or lobsters.

 

Sorry, I should of clarified. I meant 30 minutes without any input, meaning you would have to be in combat to stay logged in that lone.

[ford_landau]

Interesting read, i read every page so far...

 

 

 

I do agreee, it is great Jagex making another stand against autoers, however they cannot issue 100% bans until they have improved their macro dtection systems which have clear flaws in them.

 

CAD programs i remember were being seen by jagex bot detection progarms as bots, i think this was 2006 or something,....

 

 

 

 

 

..I am all up for a fair game, as long as no innocent people get shot.

[lordkafei]

No chance to appeal?

 

 

 

Sigh, I quit for sure now once my subscription is over..

 

 

 

Really appealing isn't a service or anything: IT'S A NECESSARY FEATURE TO PREVENT AND REDUCE THE MISTAKES!

 

 

 

Really, without any chance to combat a decision by jagex HOW DO WE KNOW FOR SURE JAGEX MAKES A CORRECT DECISION? - This is outrageous, and completely against the spirit of being an open company - Actually if this is set through it's something consumer organizations should adress!

 

If you read the newspost you would know they can detect any macro device and therefore will not ban people not using one.

 

 

 

How, after this week's fiasco, can you believe that Jagex is incapable of mistakes? This bunch has a gift for creating cluster[bleep]s.

[Albel]

I believe this happened yesterday too :

 

[hide=Owned]

[/hide]

 

 

 

Word that comes to mind is OWNED!!!!

 

 

 

Nice job jagex :thumbsup:

[k1masato]

I posted about this in the RSOF (God forbid!) and actually, quite swiftly, got some responses from J-mods:

 

 

 

No appeal, eh? Nice little virtual Guantanamo Bay you set up.
 
 
 
What about false positives? What about people whom had their account hijacked for prolonged periods of time and had their hackers operate a macro? Seeing there's no option to appeal, what will you do in those situations? Force the players (assuming they won't get IP banned) to recreate a character to 12.5M xp to justify themselves?
 
 
 
And what of programs that are "robotic" in nature but still require player input? Mousekeys pops to mind. What if you're adept with it (or, as it was intended, rely on it if you have RSI, artritis or similar) and use it for long periods of time (because, let's face it, skilling=grinding)? What will the infallible Macro-detection system tell you?
 
 
 
With kind (and worried) regards,
 
Kris

 
 
 

If you are playing the game within the rules, no action will be taken against you. If you are found to have broken the rules by using a macro program, then action will be taken. We don't take action based on suspicion alone: all instances will be fully investigated.
 
 
 
-French-

 
 
 

I still view that as a vague response.
 
 
 
* What would you do if you DID make a mistake? How will investigation go if you suspect they are, in fact, using a macro?
 
* And, for my personal benefit, what is the stance towards Mousekeys and sorts?
 
 
 
Please, don't beat around the bush on these two (three).
 
 
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Kris

 
 
 

Due to our rather strong policy against macroing, any macroing offences is checked and double checked by a human member of staff. If we issue somebody with a ban for macroing, we are 100% confident that the player was breaking the rules.
 
 
 
If somebody is *genuinely* and *absolutely* certain that there has been a mistake, they will find a number of ways to contact us are still available.
 
 
 
Cheers,
 
 
 
~ MMH ~

 
 
 

Thanks for the swift response. I'm pleased to know it's not a dead-end road in case of severe mistakes.
 
 
 
If it's not too much trouble:
 
 
 
* And, for my personal benefit, what is the stance towards Mousekeys and sorts?
 
 
 
 
 
Thanks heaps,
 
Kris

 
 
 

Mouse keys are fine, they are designed as an accessibility feature built into many OS as standard.
 
 
 
:)
 
 
 
~ MMH ~

 

 

 

QFC: 15-16-854-58962123

 

 

 

The thread is still going well, with intelligent response (God forbid!). I find it quite interesting.

 

 

 

TYVM for getting an answer on mouse keys =D> =D> !! I replied in that thread stating that ill be using mouse keys from now on. <-This is a back-up plan in case their macro detecting system failed and saw me as a macroer :lol:.