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25-Oct-2011 - Bot-Nuking Day: Making RuneScape Fairer and More Fun!


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On these lawsuits, I'll quote one youtuber who said this regarding RIAA vs individual downloaders:

 

Those kind of scare tactics are only scary as long as you can keep them up. And lawyers are expensive.

 

It's absurd to think that individual bot users will be intimidated by sporadic legal threats when the ratio of bots to normal players is apparently almost as bad as pirates to non pirates among internet users...

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A virtual casino using in-house currency which can't legally be bought with real-life cash? Seems pretty harmless, actually.

 

... and how does one get this in-house currency that cannot be bought? :unsure:

No, you seem to have misunderstood (as usual).

 

Gambling is dangerous in real-life because it becomes a preoccupation of the addict, to the point where they need to spend excessive amounts of their money in order to sustain the addiction at the expense of other vital needs. If someone becomes addicted to dicing on RuneScape, they'll lose all their GPs and... then what? Whether someone loses 1gp or 100 billion gp is irrelevent, each player on RuneScape can lose a maximum of £3.50 per account per calander month.

 

Gambling on RuneScape is not as dangerous as gambing in Las Vegas is, just as the three dozen or so free-to-play poker apps on Facebook/IPhone/Blackberry/Android which use "made up" currency aren't really dangerous either, all of which are quite routinely used by under-18s. Hell, even Super Mario 64 on the DS had a spoof version of five-card poker. I'm not personally seeing the hoards of prepubescent Mario addicts you seem to be suggesting would be the inevitable consequence of said feature.

 

In any case, I actually see this discussion as being besides the point. The fact is, Jagex doesn't need to facilitate dicing in order to essentially allow it on a de facto basis. They simply need to not stop it, even when it's clearly obvious it's taking place. You're right in saying gambling is dangerous, however I'd rather have the gambling controlled and monitored, than being left to simply run riot in the middle of the Grand Exchange.

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wish i would have got full master rc robes before the nuke. Now f2p gop is practically empty :cry:

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Me behave? Seriously? As a child I saw Tarzan almost naked, Cinderella arrived home from a party after midnight, Pinocchio told lies, Aladin was a thief, Batman drove over 200 miles an hour, Snow White lived in a house with seven men, Popeye smoked a pipe and had tattoos, Pac man ran around to digital music while eating pills that enhanced his performance, and Shaggy and Scooby were mystery solving hippies who always had the munchies. The fault is not mine! if you had this childhood and loved it put this in your signature!

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Those emails are just supposed to scare botters to stop. It's not likely that they would actually sue someone, but they WILL BAN those who continue botting. The email should be taken seriously, it clearly shows that Jagex is aware of YOUR botting and will keep an eye on you.

 

I think that ^THIS^ pretty much nails it ...

 

They didnt file that case in US District Court for shiggles. It was filed on June 28, 2011 - almost 4 months ago.

 

Before Runefest. Before Jiblix.

 

I fully expect some assclowns will test Jagex and end up as Does.

 

 

Doesn't mean dick TBH. I'm going into IP law, and the DMCA, as well as all of America's copyright/IP laws are so convoluted/messed up ATM that this really won't do much. I doubt Jagex would have any chance at all.

 

In the end, it doesn't necessarily matter whether or not these threats, with respect to legal proceedings, are idle or earnest. They do provide some very important aspects, namely:

 

1. It's a formal services of notice to those parties against which they may take legal proceedings; and

 

2. It's likely just enough to throw a scare into those individuals who would be "spooked" into ceasing and desisting from botting in the future -- i.e. those individuals who thought they were "safe" to bot because "Jagex would never know they did it".

 

Obviously, Jagex doesn't stand much of a chance of enforcing U.S. law on a gold-farm operating out of a Chinese Prison (*snerk*), and any idle threat aimed at those "players" will plainly go unheded and ignored.

 

That said, the typical "13-year-old teenaged boy" who botted his account to get "epic PKer stats", and who's resident in the U.S., and isn't in "pre-law" doesn't know any of that. All he knows is he got an email from Jagex that told him if he bots again, his ass is grass.

 

In the end, it's the 13-year-old teenaged boy that Jagex wants back and playing as a "legit" player so this is an opportunity for Jagex to throw a scare into them, warn them about botting, warn them about banning, and not lose their paying membership fees.

 

 

Yes, I guess, but I'd imagine that most non-adults would know they are safe-they aren't legally responsible as of yet. And I'd bet that a vast majority of the bots are not individuals botting, but rather gold farmers, and those botting accounts to sell. Its more mass production the individual effort. Granted, it may scare some people away, but its really a laughable attempt to try and enforce U.S Copyright law 1.) Internationally and 2.) Against U.S Botters.

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Those emails are just supposed to scare botters to stop. It's not likely that they would actually sue someone, but they WILL BAN those who continue botting. The email should be taken seriously, it clearly shows that Jagex is aware of YOUR botting and will keep an eye on you.

 

I think that ^THIS^ pretty much nails it ...

 

They didnt file that case in US District Court for shiggles. It was filed on June 28, 2011 - almost 4 months ago.

 

Before Runefest. Before Jiblix.

 

I fully expect some assclowns will test Jagex and end up as Does.

 

Of course it was before those two you mentioned, this was in the works since FT as stated. Some attention seeker didn't just make a video and Jagex "suddenly" realised there was bots in their game. :rolleyes:

 

I'm actually really enjoying this. Being able to have a chat with anyone around me, no matter where, is awesome! In the strangest of places...If there's a person, they'll talk! Awesome!

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What's everyone's problem with dicing anyway?

More often than not, it's a scam. That, and Jagex's ambiguous stance on trust games being "against the spirit of the game" maks it sound like they're trying to avoid dealing with it all together.

 

Psh it is rarely a scam...I've been dicing for a while. I made bank and I lost it all multiple times, never been scammed. Only people that get scammed are the ones that don't take enough precaution when trading hosts, in which case they deserve to be scammed. Dicing is not against the rules either so I don't see the debate over it. This is no different than the armour trimming problems of old.

 

Lmao. Dicing is essentially trust-trading, and you can easily get scammed if you aren't careful. That being said, you're an idiot. You're trying to tell us that dicing is mostly legitimate, isn't against the rules, then you compare it to something that almost always was an illegitimate scam and is most definitely against the rules?

 

As for bots, I still maintain it's too early to tell. I say we need to wait at least a month before we can see how truly effective it is. That being said, if this keeps working as well as it has, RS is a game that I can finally, um... if RS comes up in conversation, and the person is semi-interested in playing it, I can, in good conscience, not feel the need to tell them not to play.

 

My point was that both were trust trades, both had the potential for scamming, and both are technically not against the rules. If you are ignorant of the mechanics of the game, you deserve the outcome. Think that's cruel? Look at the us legal system. If you're ignorant of a law, totally have no idea that it was illegal to do something, and then you do it, game over man you face legal concequences for your ignorant act. I could've describe my analogy further for sure and I apologize that I didn't.

 

Actually, armour trimming is against the rules. I am pretty sure it has always BEEN against the rules. Jagex has even set up warnings on the log-in menu telling you that if someone offers to trim your armour, they are trying to scam you. Trust trading is technically against the rules, although dicing in and of itself isn't explicitly against the rules. Dicing is actually a grey area tbh. I think Jagex doesn't want to actually get rid of it because some players like it or something, idk, but at the same time they can't legitimize it because RS would become a gambling house. And when you consider gambling RS gold and RWT, you run into a potentially bad scenario, considering that a large amount of the game's market is at people who can't otherwise legally gamble.

 

A virtual casino using in-house currency which can't legally be bought with real-life cash? Seems pretty harmless, actually.

 

... and how does one get this in-house currency that cannot be bought? :unsure:

No, you seem to have misunderstood (as usual).

 

Gambling is dangerous in real-life because it becomes a preoccupation of the addict, to the point where they need to spend excessive amounts of their money in order to sustain the addiction at the expense of other vital needs. If someone becomes addicted to dicing on RuneScape, they'll lose all their GPs and... then what? Whether someone loses 1gp or 100 billion gp is irrelevent, each player on RuneScape can lose a maximum of £3.50 per account per calander month.

 

Gambling on RuneScape is not as dangerous as gambing in Las Vegas is, just as the three dozen or so free-to-play poker apps on Facebook/IPhone/Blackberry/Android which use "made up" currency aren't really dangerous either, all of which are quite routinely used by under-18s. Hell, even Super Mario 64 on the DS had a spoof version of five-card poker. I'm not personally seeing the hoards of prepubescent Mario addicts you seem to be suggesting would be the inevitable consequence of said feature.

 

In any case, I actually see this discussion as being besides the point. The fact is, Jagex doesn't need to facilitate dicing in order to essentially allow it on a de facto basis. They simply need to not stop it, even when it's clearly obvious it's taking place. You're right in saying gambling is dangerous, however I'd rather have the gambling controlled and monitored, than being left to simply run riot in the middle of the Grand Exchange.

 

The moment you consider RWT your argument starts to fall apart. If I were to say, sell my h'ween, gamble it with a dicer or something, and win, I have acquired (going by the prices I've gotten PM'ed about gold lol) in-game currency of the approximate value of $100. Plus, the last thing you need is a "concerned parent" to pick up on RS gambling with an in-game currency that has real world money value. Idk. At the very least, it explains why Jagex won't legalize it, although I do sort of agree with you. And it isn't as dangerous as RL gambling.

 

Back on topic, I'm really curious about what will happen. A significant amount of players not playing anymore really hurts the game financially, yet on the other hand I think the game was going into a slow and inevitable decline anyways because bots were driving away players and keeping away new players.

 

I wonder what Jagex's bank books look like. They're still working on Stellar Dawn or whatever last I checked, and the Transformers MMO. There's also probably a relatively small amount of money coming in from funorb; yes I realize they haven't updated it in like a year (except for maintenance which is probably part of the anti-bot thing) but I think it's likely that there is a small community of paying members there which generates small revenue. Although I'm just speculating; the majority of their income is definitely RS. Which will probably take a hefty hit because of bots leaving, and trying this lawsuit will take away more money. On the other hand, from what I know they've recently purchased and moved into a new building and they own an APC for no apparent reason.

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Trust-trading is against the rules because Jagex said explicitly that trust-trading is against the rules. In any system, there is room for discretion outside of what is written down on paper (or computer screen). I don't necessarily oppose dicing--it's not like RS avatars are getting chucked out of their homes for excessive gambling as they do in real life--I just wish Jagex would make something in-game that facilitates dicing, such that the risk of scamming would be far lower than it currently is.

 

That said, many would argue gambling is itself a form of scamming. It's about perspective.

Trust trading is not against the rules now as dicing is not against the rules. However in my opinion they should make dicing against the rules, it is worse then merchanting (which is in my opinion a form of scam, don't want to debate about that here), they should just make a dicing room where you can dice against computers, would be a lovely money drain.

 

Lol at merchenting being a form of a scam. You clearly just lost the debate with that sentence.

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Yes, I guess, but I'd imagine that most non-adults would know they are safe-they aren't legally responsible as of yet. And I'd bet that a vast majority of the bots are not individuals botting, but rather gold farmers, and those botting accounts to sell. Its more mass production the individual effort. Granted, it may scare some people away, but its really a laughable attempt to try and enforce U.S Copyright law 1.) Internationally and 2.) Against U.S Botters.

 

Minors can indeed be sued in US courts; the parents are usually held financially responsible.

 

Being underaged is no free pass.

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Trust-trading is against the rules because Jagex said explicitly that trust-trading is against the rules. In any system, there is room for discretion outside of what is written down on paper (or computer screen). I don't necessarily oppose dicing--it's not like RS avatars are getting chucked out of their homes for excessive gambling as they do in real life--I just wish Jagex would make something in-game that facilitates dicing, such that the risk of scamming would be far lower than it currently is.

 

That said, many would argue gambling is itself a form of scamming. It's about perspective.

Trust trading is not against the rules now as dicing is not against the rules. However in my opinion they should make dicing against the rules, it is worse then merchanting (which is in my opinion a form of scam, don't want to debate about that here), they should just make a dicing room where you can dice against computers, would be a lovely money drain.

 

Lol at merchenting being a form of a scam. You clearly just lost the debate with that sentence.

This. Price manipulation clans are definitely a scam, but merchanting most certainly is not.

 

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It is my opinion and I said I am not going to debate it, why try to get an argument then? It doesn't matter if I am wrong or not, it is what I think.

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The moment you consider RWT your argument starts to fall apart. If I were to say, sell my h'ween, gamble it with a dicer or something, and win, I have acquired (going by the prices I've gotten PM'ed about gold lol) in-game currency of the approximate value of $100. Plus, the last thing you need is a "concerned parent" to pick up on RS gambling with an in-game currency that has real world money value. Idk. At the very least, it explains why Jagex won't legalize it, although I do sort of agree with you. And it isn't as dangerous as RL gambling.

It's a seperate debate so I don't want to go into it in too much. I'm aware of the connection between dicers and RWT, but the same would also be true of the non-RS examples I cited (anything with a purchaser theoretically has a real life price value) yet they're generally safe places for under-18s to 'gamble', which is quite some distance to Bly's original claim of "they can't do it". Well actually, they can with appropriate safeguards.

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Trust-trading is against the rules because Jagex said explicitly that trust-trading is against the rules. In any system, there is room for discretion outside of what is written down on paper (or computer screen). I don't necessarily oppose dicing--it's not like RS avatars are getting chucked out of their homes for excessive gambling as they do in real life--I just wish Jagex would make something in-game that facilitates dicing, such that the risk of scamming would be far lower than it currently is.

 

That said, many would argue gambling is itself a form of scamming. It's about perspective.

Trust trading is not against the rules now as dicing is not against the rules. However in my opinion they should make dicing against the rules, it is worse then merchanting (which is in my opinion a form of scam, don't want to debate about that here), they should just make a dicing room where you can dice against computers, would be a lovely money drain.

 

Lol at merchenting being a form of a scam. You clearly just lost the debate with that sentence.

This. Price manipulation clans are definitely a scam, but merchanting most certainly is not.

 

And thus people should realise the importance of language in highly emotive debates. By simply conflating a term, it can destroy the entire argument should the error be spotted.

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Lol..

Now it's the botmakers turn to churn out propaganda. All of the major bots site say that they will be back and offer absolutely no concrete evidence that they have any idea to get past the new security.

 

I'm still a bit bummed that there was no mass ban - yes 98% bots stopped working, but 98% of botters did not get banned. Even those who got the lawsuit email (which was probably supplied by paypal or via a subpoena) are getting yet another chance.

 

Even if botting never comes back, the damage done is already so much...billions and billions of gold farmed, millions of botted 99s.... Rs will never be the same again, and neither will the gp you get or the 99 cape that used to mean something.

 

And yet the botters are still ungrateful that they got away with so much, even to the point of rioting in game that they can't cheat. What. The. [bleep]. These ungrateful bastards do not deserve anymore chances. Ban their asses and sue them. The copyright law is definitely on jagex's side. Jagex's really needs to see that these cheating scum, same as in 2002, are not the customers they want!

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Am I the only one who noticed they haven't spoken much about their new way to spot bots? The only mention of it, is in that mail they send to some people, and it sounds threatening, yet like something that skipped its way out. Might be a wild guess, but perhaps what botters should really worry about it's not getting spotted while trying to get bots back to work. This sounds even more possible with the info Jagex have in possession right now, legally-wise.

 

For what I can tell, the prevention itself might be a decoy, and a good one that, in case of failing, has something way more powerful behind it; maybe that's the reason Jagex is so confident about it, it's just one obstacle behind each other for bots; that actually explains the cold-blood behaviour from jagex regarding bot developers claims, like if they were doing exactly what they expected. It's kind of scary even.

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Lol..

Now it's the botmakers turn to churn out propaganda. All of the major bots site say that they will be back and offer absolutely no concrete evidence that they have any idea to get past the new security.

 

I'm still a bit bummed that there was no mass ban - yes 98% bots stopped working, but 98% of botters did not get banned. Even those who got the lawsuit email (which was probably supplied by paypal or via a subpoena) are getting yet another chance.

 

Even if botting never comes back, the damage done is already so much...billions and billions of gold farmed, millions of botted 99s.... Rs will never be the same again, and neither will the gp you get or the 99 cape that used to mean something.

 

And yet the botters are still ungrateful that they got away with so much, even to the point of rioting in game that they can't cheat. What. The. [bleep]. These ungrateful bastards do not deserve anymore chances. Ban their asses and sue them. The copyright law is definitely on jagex's side. Jagex's really needs to see that these cheating scum, same as in 2002, are not the customers they want!

 

Angry much? Really, unless Jagex made their own bots, I'm not sure how the copyright law will work, lol. As for 99s meaning something, meh. RS is a huge ass grind-fest as is. Many of them simply want the rewards without the huge ass grind. I don't blame them. In fact, looking at the amount of players playing RS now vs last week, somewhere between 33%-50% of the people online at any given time were bots. Such large numbers give the indication that there's something wrong with the game rather then a few lazy individuals.

 

Which also brings me to my next point. By simply looking at the number of people online last week vs this week, and considering Jagex essentially gets money from people, well, playing the game, you can conclude that (at least if all these players unsubscribe and quit RS) that Jagex is losing, at a conservative estimate, 33% of their income.* Irregardless of the actual number, it should be very obvious that Jagex will take a huge economic hit if all the botters quit playing and unsubscribe. Should the game survive, is likely, unless the current grind changes players will just be motivated to start botting again. Frankly, the root of botting ultimately boils down to RS being too grindy.

 

*I must now admit that I am getting this number by simply approximating (in my head) the percentage drop of players online now vs last week, and saying that's how much income Jagex will lose.

 

I think I just like playing Devil's advocate or something...

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Looking at stats today shows that the purge continues...

 

Skill           Oct-22     Oct-26    Gain
Woodcutting     11,156     10,948     208
Fishing         60,535     59,792     743
Hunter          79,511     79,414      97

 

The gap is closing for Mining, Smithing & Crafting - if this purge goes on much longer, Ill gain spots in those too.

 

They must have a pantsload of accounts that are suspect.

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I was thinking, even though Jagex is going to take a financial hit from this, if this fix really can permanently stop botters then a lot of resources (legal, anti-bot teams, account recovery teams) they've been putting towards this can now be used elsewhere. The number of servers could also be cut down which could save some money. I think a large majority of bots were F2P anyways so Jagex isn't really losing money over them leaving; in fact they'd save the money that was being used to host servers which basically only contained bots.

 

If they market it well enough a lot of old players might come back after seeing how things have changed.

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Looking at stats today shows that the purge continues...

 

Skill           Oct-22     Oct-26    Gain
Woodcutting     11,156     10,948     208
Fishing         60,535     59,792     743
Hunter          79,511     79,414      97

 

The gap is closing for Mining, Smithing & Crafting - if this purge goes on much longer, Ill gain spots in those too.

 

They must have a pantsload of accounts that are suspect.

They're offering amnesty to a lot of accounts on the condition that they don't bot again and they're being watched closely now. My guess is the accounts being banned are only gold farming accounts.

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A virtual casino using in-house currency which can't legally be bought with real-life cash? Seems pretty harmless, actually.

 

... and how does one get this in-house currency that cannot be bought? :unsure:

No, you seem to have misunderstood (as usual).

 

Gambling is dangerous in real-life because it becomes a preoccupation of the addict, to the point where they need to spend excessive amounts of their money in order to sustain the addiction at the expense of other vital needs. If someone becomes addicted to dicing on RuneScape, they'll lose all their GPs and... then what? Whether someone loses 1gp or 100 billion gp is irrelevent, each player on RuneScape can lose a maximum of £3.50 per account per calander month.

 

Gambling on RuneScape is not as dangerous as gambing in Las Vegas is, just as the three dozen or so free-to-play poker apps on Facebook/IPhone/Blackberry/Android which use "made up" currency aren't really dangerous either, all of which are quite routinely used by under-18s. Hell, even Super Mario 64 on the DS had a spoof version of five-card poker. I'm not personally seeing the hoards of prepubescent Mario addicts you seem to be suggesting would be the inevitable consequence of said feature.

 

In any case, I actually see this discussion as being besides the point. The fact is, Jagex doesn't need to facilitate dicing in order to essentially allow it on a de facto basis. They simply need to not stop it, even when it's clearly obvious it's taking place. You're right in saying gambling is dangerous, however I'd rather have the gambling controlled and monitored, than being left to simply run riot in the middle of the Grand Exchange.

 

Since I am still in the process of my usual misunderstanding :rolleyes: please -- you still have not explained how someone gets a hold of this "in-house" currency that you've deemed to be entirely safe.

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I assume he means gp. :rolleyes:

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A virtual casino using in-house currency which can't legally be bought with real-life cash? Seems pretty harmless, actually.

 

... and how does one get this in-house currency that cannot be bought? :unsure:

No, you seem to have misunderstood (as usual).

 

Gambling is dangerous in real-life because it becomes a preoccupation of the addict, to the point where they need to spend excessive amounts of their money in order to sustain the addiction at the expense of other vital needs. If someone becomes addicted to dicing on RuneScape, they'll lose all their GPs and... then what? Whether someone loses 1gp or 100 billion gp is irrelevent, each player on RuneScape can lose a maximum of £3.50 per account per calander month.

 

Gambling on RuneScape is not as dangerous as gambing in Las Vegas is, just as the three dozen or so free-to-play poker apps on Facebook/IPhone/Blackberry/Android which use "made up" currency aren't really dangerous either, all of which are quite routinely used by under-18s. Hell, even Super Mario 64 on the DS had a spoof version of five-card poker. I'm not personally seeing the hoards of prepubescent Mario addicts you seem to be suggesting would be the inevitable consequence of said feature.

 

In any case, I actually see this discussion as being besides the point. The fact is, Jagex doesn't need to facilitate dicing in order to essentially allow it on a de facto basis. They simply need to not stop it, even when it's clearly obvious it's taking place. You're right in saying gambling is dangerous, however I'd rather have the gambling controlled and monitored, than being left to simply run riot in the middle of the Grand Exchange.

 

Since I am still in the process of my usual misunderstanding :rolleyes: please -- you still have not explained how someone gets a hold of this "in-house" currency that you've deemed to be entirely safe.

 

No, you don't get a hold of the in-house currency because it's in-house. It doesn't leave the casino, hence it can't be traded for real life goods. It's for the same reason you can't real world trade, say, Pizzaz points. I suppose you technically could, but that would require access to your account, since the currency is bound to your character as opposed to freely floating in an open market (which is what gold coins are). Gold coins can be freely exchanged between players. Character-bound currencies cannot. Hence why an "in-house" currency (a currency which is only active when your character's in the casino) could not "grabbed hold" of; there's nothing to grab on to.

 

That's if I understood your question. If you're referring to how you earn it in the first place, I assume you'd earn it in the casino, and what you earn deactivates when you leave it (meaning you and only you could have access to that particular iteration of currency).

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Gambling on RS is not really safer than the in real world. I'm sure there are a lot of players that buy gp for $USD and then go to the duel arena and stake it away. An addicted gambler is not gonna care about Jagex's rules and the fact that they're not supposed to buy gp. Gp looks to be about 50 cents/mil, so let's say a gambler goes to a gold farming website and spends 1000 $USD on gold, that's 2b. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult at all for a bad staker to lose that money in a day or so. Just like a good staker/dicer may be able to actually make billions and then sell those for thousands of $USD. It's not that different from a real casino, the only difference is that everything is done on a virtual black market instead of being legal.

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I logged on today for the first time in about 2 weeks and walked down to Taverly black demons to find them completely and 100% empty. :)

Oh my god, this morning when I got a black demon task and I saw no one there, I was actually so happy haha

 

 

Same, I like the feeling of being able to do whatever I want without having to worry about swarms of bots... And when I encounter a player I know its most likely a real person (atm at least).

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Gambling on RS is not really safer than the in real world. I'm sure there are a lot of players that buy gp for $USD and then go to the duel arena and stake it away. An addicted gambler is not gonna care about Jagex's rules and the fact that they're not supposed to buy gp. Gp looks to be about 50 cents/mil, so let's say a gambler goes to a gold farming website and spends 1000 $USD on gold, that's 2b. I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult at all for a bad staker to lose that money in a day or so. Just like a good staker/dicer may be able to actually make billions and then sell those for thousands of $USD. It's not that different from a real casino, the only difference is that everything is done on a virtual black market instead of being legal.

 

Hence Ginger's solution to the problem being that the currency is in-house. You can't purchase in-house currency to gamble with; you earn it there and it stays there. The question now is, how would you earn it? At least, that's how I understand what he said.

RIP RU_Insane. August 3rd, 2005 - November 11th, 2012.
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