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Is anyone else just completely disappointed with everyone?


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Both sides made mistakes, both sides have admitted making mistakes.

The accusations about trigger happy mods aren't something that should be brushed aside. I'm somewhat familiar with the ban process from my time as a mod a few years back but I'd wager most users aren't so maybe a clear cut sticky or something explaining the ins and outs of the warning/ban system might be good (or maybe theres something like this already that I've missed).

 

Anyway, whats happened has happened. I guess it's how both sides try to work things out that matters now.

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Both sides made mistakes, both sides have admitted making mistakes.

The accusations about trigger happy mods aren't something that should be brushed aside. I'm somewhat familiar with the ban process from my time as a mod a few years back but I'd wager most users aren't so maybe a clear cut sticky or something explaining the ins and outs of the warning/ban system might be good (or maybe theres something like this already that I've missed).

 

Anyway, whats happened has happened. I guess it's how both sides try to work things out that matters now.

I think this is a really good idea.

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You guys gotta get off the followers band wagon here. Every time someone with a little reputation gets banned or does something inappropriate and gets punished you all start defending the person because you think they care.

 

You gotta stop drooling over these e-famous no namers, like Justin Bieber, and deal with your own lives. I don't wanna see another loser become famous over night because he made a youtube video over a rs update, and turn that person into a sage.

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I personally think that trolling TIF with spam and porn wasn't the best idea, and those users should remain banned.

 

I mean, post those things as a "parting shot", why couldn't just take the high road? Same to the mods on the issue of removing the guide, obviously the person was doing it out of spite, so just let him be happy and should've removed it.

 

Anyways, kinda hard to say those things especially considering hindsight is always 20/20. So whatever the mods do now, just hope they make sure it'll be... better.

 

Whether or not it was done out of spite, I'm reluctant to submit anything to Tip.It in the future, now that (at least part of) the Tip.It administration has shown that they will not even respect the author's wishes with regards to his/her work. I'd much rather host it elsewhere myself and link people to it, or only distribute it directly to people who I feel need it. It's not about the specifics of the situation. It's not even about the legal hurdles. It's simply about the attitude Tip.It holds towards people who contribute such guides.

 

Maybe you disagree. And if you're someone who has committed a hundred hours of research to a guide, then I can accept that you simply are more tolerant and selfless. But if you aren't, I don't believe you can understand how disrespectful this decision felt.

 

Both sides made mistakes, both sides have admitted making mistakes.

The accusations about trigger happy mods aren't something that should be brushed aside. I'm somewhat familiar with the ban process from my time as a mod a few years back but I'd wager most users aren't so maybe a clear cut sticky or something explaining the ins and outs of the warning/ban system might be good (or maybe theres something like this already that I've missed).

 

Anyway, whats happened has happened. I guess it's how both sides try to work things out that matters now.

 

One side has already "worked things out," as far as they're concerned. Some people here are happy with the decision, some are not. Honestly, it's rather annoying to frequent Tip.It, and realize a good portion of the valuable, high-end resources are gone, but I personally feel it was for the best. I have friends among those who are leaving, and I don't think they could have been happy here, as what they desire is something that Tip.It would have had a very hard time giving them. They believe they can create it for themselves, so there's no reason for them to remain here.

 

The question is whether Tip.It is ready to change. A long time ago, when I first came to Tip.It, it was a community that put a lot of efforts towards improving at the game, and helping the newcomers improve too. Recently, it's been a constant flame war between the "efficiency trolls" and the anti-efficiency crowd, with some occasional "OMG WORST UPDATE EVER!" One of the things that set Tip.It apart from RSOF for me when I first came here, was that generally, players here were better than typical Runescape players. When the Dagannoth Kings came, members of the Tip.It community were there. When the God Wars dungeon came, members of the Tip.It community were there. It was members of Tip.It that discovered Rock Lobsters as a source of charms, and members of Tip.It that discovered the various design issues with Commander Zilyana. I'm not saying we were the best, or the farthest ahead, but in general, Tip.It was better at the game than the average player.

 

These days, a lot of Tip.Iters are retired or semi-retired. Others generally don't have much time for the game, and play casually, not worrying about end-game goals and the like. Those who are knowledgeable about the game, to be blunt, simply aren't as friendly and inviting towards those aspiring to greater heights anymore. Advice given is frequently harsher than necessary, and there's a general lack of patience.

 

I think the loss of these high level players is pretty devastating, and if Tip.It continues the way it is, it will never really become a top-notch community, in regards to Runescape. It may be a great place to hang out and socialize with people who might or might not actually play the game, but eventually, anyone serious about the game will be driven to search elsewhere.

 

Some members of the administration here have expressed interest in starting a new forum to try to encourage meta-gaming. I can appreciate those sentiments, and I think if handled properly, it will allow us to create a more friendly environment in which experienced and inexperienced players alike can help each other learn more and become better at this game. But before that can happen, the general attitudes in the community need to change, I feel. These recent events have shown a lot of things - a lot of "elite" players let their arrogance get the best of them at times, some moderators and administrators are incapable of acting responsibly with their power, and in general, the community is very divided. These all need to be addressed. At the very least, there's far much bad blood between community members with different beliefs, and the administration has broken the trust of many players.

 

I don't think simply sharing the ban process would appease anyone that's truly distraught. I've heard several of the staff admit, through various channels, that some of the bans were complete bogus. I'm impressed with their honesty, but we also need assurance that something is being done so that the events that have transpired will not occur again.

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They shouldn't be unbanned tbh :thumbdown:

 

On what basis? Baseless arguments like these are good examples of what ignites flame wars, because you've simply not convinced/persuaded anyone to take your position, but may encourage some posters to argue against you.

 

I'd say that some of the banned users have taken a step too far, and did nothing to help to resolve the situation. Some of the users were indeed unfairly banned, as rushed decisions were made swiftly which simply created this drama on Tipit.

 

Name calling should never be tolerated. Too often it is, and instead of moderators dealing with the situation, it often lingers and builds up into a flamewar that we have witnessed in the past few days.

 

I don't see the 'no naming names' rule as completely fair - Tipit should make an exception on naming players for illustrative purposes, given that the reasoning is plausible. Eg "John Doe keeps posting flamebait on H&A, someone sort it out please" should not have a punishment attached to it, because the purpose of naming names in that situation is not malicious.

 

I'm not quite sure where I'm going in this little rant of mine. I'll leave this here

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You guys gotta get off the followers band wagon here. Every time someone with a little reputation gets banned or does something inappropriate and gets punished you all start defending the person because you think they care.

 

You gotta stop drooling over these e-famous no namers, like Justin Bieber, and deal with your own lives. I don't wanna see another loser become famous over night because he made a youtube video over a rs update, and turn that person into a sage.

 

wat.

 

That's the most coherent thing I can say about that post.

 

They shouldn't be unbanned tbh :thumbdown:

 

On what basis? Baseless arguments like these are good examples of what ignites flame wars, because you've simply not convinced/persuaded anyone to take your position, but may encourage some posters to argue against you.

 

I'd say that some of the banned users have taken a step too far, and did nothing to help to resolve the situation. Some of the users were indeed unfairly banned, as rushed decisions were made swiftly which simply created this drama on Tipit.

 

Name calling should never be tolerated. Too often it is, and instead of moderators dealing with the situation, it often lingers and builds up into a flamewar that we have witnessed in the past few days.

 

I don't see the 'no naming names' rule as completely fair - Tipit should make an exception on naming players for illustrative purposes, given that the reasoning is plausible. Eg "John Doe keeps posting flamebait on H&A, someone sort it out please" should not have a punishment attached to it, because the purpose of naming names in that situation is not malicious.

 

I'm not quite sure where I'm going in this little rant of mine. I'll leave this here

 

I agree. Although the porno posters were banned rightly and should stay banned...

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Frankly, I think some people need to unclench themselves a little bit. It's a forum, about an online game, run by a Volunteer team. Take it easy. Let's all remember, gaming isn't the biggest thing in our lives. It is, or at least should be, sex. :thumbsup:

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This is getting dull now; from all I've skimmed over it basically seems:

The efficiency lot have got the knickers in a twist because moderators are telling them they are not allowed to be rude, derogatory and flamey towards people who post perfectly valid advice even if it is not the most efficient advice.

 

The solution I see is:

Get off yer high-horse let the mods do their jobs and accept the fact not everybody is an efficiency person. Yes you can disagree with advice or post a more efficient alternative but that does not require being rude, derogatory or flamey. All you gotta do is give you're advice and tag on the end the above advice is out-dated or incorrect because x,y,z or so and so advice works but this method is more efficient.

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Wow, the replies I'm seeing is ridiculous. If you know nothing about the situation, then you shouldn't judge the people in it. The users who supposedly broke the rules may have had their offending posts removed. The administration team's decisions are rarely publicly announced. Maybe, just maybe, they were both in the wrong. This has proven to be the case today.

 

On the flip side, disagreeing is one thing, and flaming/ridiculing is another. Please, moderators, differentiate them properly. I've seen blunt posts labeled as trolling even though it's good advice with good intentions, posted in a less 'friendly' manner. I've seen flaming labeled as 'valid points'. Inconsistency is one of the biggest flaws of Tipit. This should be changed.

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This is getting dull now; from all I've skimmed over it basically seems:

The efficiency lot have got the knickers in a twist because moderators are telling them they are not allowed to be rude, derogatory and flamey towards people who post perfectly valid advice even if it is not the most efficient advice.

 

The solution I see is:

Get off yer high-horse let the mods do their jobs and accept the fact not everybody is an efficiency person. Yes you can disagree with advice or post a more efficient alternative but that does not require being rude, derogatory or flamey. All you gotta do is give you're advice and tag on the end the above advice is out-dated or incorrect because x,y,z or so and so advice works but this method is more efficient.

 

This. Couldn't have put it better myself.

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I know I'm very much simplifying the issue.

 

But it all boils down to tht.

Afterall if they accepted the rules as they r fair and didn't start kicking off there wouldnt of been extra punishments.

no extra punishment = no rampant spamming about omg its unfair.

No spammage = no mods getting slightly trigger happy due to being stressed out, bullied and painted as bad for no reason.

 

I personally wouldnt mind if most of the effcieny mob got banned; some give great advice but most just needlessly hound people and have driven some of the best advice givers away. Heck regardless of what I post or how valid it is atleast of tht lot normally crops up to flame me and say I "always psot wrong advice" even though 95% of what I post is spot on and the 5% that isn't right I either make clear I'm not sure on or when proven wrong (opposed to jsut flamed at) apologise for.

 

NB: I'm not trying to say I'm a saint or anything. I know I kick off and bite back and don;t back down to flamers and thus cause some arguments to continue. But I'm aware of this and half the time I even report myself to the mods so they come in and clean it up and bring watchful eyes to the thread which helps me told my tongue to avoid punishment. And more often that not do apologise for kicking off where appropriate.

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Both sides made mistakes, both sides have admitted making mistakes.

The accusations about trigger happy mods aren't something that should be brushed aside. I'm somewhat familiar with the ban process from my time as a mod a few years back but I'd wager most users aren't so maybe a clear cut sticky or something explaining the ins and outs of the warning/ban system might be good (or maybe theres something like this already that I've missed).

 

Anyway, whats happened has happened. I guess it's how both sides try to work things out that matters now.

Well we did do a Moderator Spotlight a few months ago that we hoped would bring some transparency to the team.

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[spoiler=Soma quote]

One side has already "worked things out," as far as they're concerned. Some people here are happy with the decision, some are not. Honestly, it's rather annoying to frequent Tip.It, and realize a good portion of the valuable, high-end resources are gone, but I personally feel it was for the best. I have friends among those who are leaving, and I don't think they could have been happy here, as what they desire is something that Tip.It would have had a very hard time giving them. They believe they can create it for themselves, so there's no reason for them to remain here.

 

The question is whether Tip.It is ready to change. A long time ago, when I first came to Tip.It, it was a community that put a lot of efforts towards improving at the game, and helping the newcomers improve too. Recently, it's been a constant flame war between the "efficiency trolls" and the anti-efficiency crowd, with some occasional "OMG WORST UPDATE EVER!" One of the things that set Tip.It apart from RSOF for me when I first came here, was that generally, players here were better than typical Runescape players. When the Dagannoth Kings came, members of the Tip.It community were there. When the God Wars dungeon came, members of the Tip.It community were there. It was members of Tip.It that discovered Rock Lobsters as a source of charms, and members of Tip.It that discovered the various design issues with Commander Zilyana. I'm not saying we were the best, or the farthest ahead, but in general, Tip.It was better at the game than the average player.

 

These days, a lot of Tip.Iters are retired or semi-retired. Others generally don't have much time for the game, and play casually, not worrying about end-game goals and the like. Those who are knowledgeable about the game, to be blunt, simply aren't as friendly and inviting towards those aspiring to greater heights anymore. Advice given is frequently harsher than necessary, and there's a general lack of patience.

 

I think the loss of these high level players is pretty devastating, and if Tip.It continues the way it is, it will never really become a top-notch community, in regards to Runescape. It may be a great place to hang out and socialize with people who might or might not actually play the game, but eventually, anyone serious about the game will be driven to search elsewhere.

 

Some members of the administration here have expressed interest in starting a new forum to try to encourage meta-gaming. I can appreciate those sentiments, and I think if handled properly, it will allow us to create a more friendly environment in which experienced and inexperienced players alike can help each other learn more and become better at this game. But before that can happen, the general attitudes in the community need to change, I feel. These recent events have shown a lot of things - a lot of "elite" players let their arrogance get the best of them at times, some moderators and administrators are incapable of acting responsibly with their power, and in general, the community is very divided. These all need to be addressed. At the very least, there's far much bad blood between community members with different beliefs, and the administration has broken the trust of many players.

 

I don't think simply sharing the ban process would appease anyone that's truly distraught. I've heard several of the staff admit, through various channels, that some of the bans were complete bogus. I'm impressed with their honesty, but we also need assurance that something is being done so that the events that have transpired will not occur again.

 

 

I think you might have hit the nail on the head here.

 

A lot of people on TIF, myself included, are doing bigger and better things with their lives which don't invlove Runescape to the extent we used to play it. We're getting older and many of us have serious college educations to finish up--some of the older members have passed this phase and have been vaulted straight into a stressful workplace. That is not to say that people who choose to play Runescape more (or less) than I are idiots or are wasting their time or that we should play more to be "in-touch" with the players who choose to play at a highly efficient level.

 

Everyone chooses to play Runescape in their own way. As simplistic as that statement may be, I think a lot of people have forgotten that on both sides of the aisle. I can see how the efficiency camp (god, I absolutely hate calling them that) feels they were wronged but I can also sympathize with the Admins and Moderators as well. In times of crisis, decisions need to be made immediately and it's easy for mistakes to be made--hindsight is not 20/20, but it's easy to point out where the mistakes were. I'm on board with your ideas of collaboration, Soma. The guides on the main site were extremely useful in their heyday, but a lot of them are out-dated. This isn't a reflection of the quality of the staff, but rather that the way in which Runescape is played is so rapidly changing that it is easy for a site like Tip.It to fall behind. Thank god for the AoW and its guides, I know I've used them many, many times.

 

More to the point, I believe the efficiency camp and their intimate knowledge of this game needs to be a part of Tip.It if it wants to be a cutting edge resource for Runescapers. If it wants to remain focused on the community aspects that have been here for years and will most likely remain for quite awhile, then the banning of several members and depature of their associates will not be seen as that great of a loss. Personally, I'd like to see to see both sides come to their senses and work together to make this place better, but I was born of hippie parents and there's a big part of me that loves to see people getting along :shades:

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One side has already "worked things out," as far as they're concerned. Some people here are happy ...

 

I think you might have hit the nail on the head here...

 

I agree with a lot what was said there. But to add on i believe think some of the issues here are more so brought on by jagex's recent actions/lack of actions. Even if many members of tip.it feel there is life in the game some are discouraged by ongoing lack of trust in jagex as a company. We see next to nothing done about bots, updates that don't satisfy, various bugs that come up.

 

Ultimately this leads to too many topics and posts about bots/hatred towards jagex/nit picking very small issues. And even after that it seems all of this game has been talked about. Of course large updates cause various topics about the unknown or what has changed, but when there are not many game changing updates the forums seem to stagnate.

 

Now i am not here to bash jagex and i still have faith in them, but i think this magnifys the separation in the community. People choose their sides and fight about it rather then helping each other discover something about the new update or even talking about what the future might hold. I used to come on the forums to discover something new/hear other people's opinions. At this point i feel i already know who feels what, and most details of the game.

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I can't say i am glad that Grimy bunyip is leaving, nor do i care much. But i am VERY glad that people that are assosciated with Grimy bunyip are leaving.One of them is the biggest [wagon] on this forum.

 

Just leave the forum already :thumbup:

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I can't say i am glad that Grimy bunyip is leaving, nor do i care much. But i am VERY glad that people that are assosciated with Grimy bunyip are leaving.One of them is the biggest [wagon] on this forum.

 

Just leave the forum already :thumbup:

That's not really helping anything. To each his own I suppose.

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I can't say i am glad that Grimy bunyip is leaving, nor do i care much. But i am VERY glad that people that are assosciated with Grimy bunyip are leaving.One of them is the biggest [wagon] on this forum.

 

Just leave the forum already :thumbup:

That's not really helping anything. To each his own I suppose.

It didn't help me much either when so called "Efficient players" viewed my Help and Advice topics only to spread the word, just for their own sake of "We know best". They need to learn to respect other players way of playing the game, if they want respect back.

 

And in most cases where "Efficient players" posted on my Help and Advice topics, very often they started replying with a short comment, following it with a elaborated post when i accused them of trolling.

 

Should make a rule for Help and Advice topics: If your gonna reply to a topic, make sure you elaborate/argument for or write a decent detailed post. They lacked that alot of the times. So i am glad they are leaving. They are unecessary, not important and easy replaceable.

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You guys gotta get off the followers band wagon here. Every time someone with a little reputation gets banned or does something inappropriate and gets punished you all start defending the person because you think they care.

 

You gotta stop drooling over these e-famous no namers, like Justin Bieber, and deal with your own lives. I don't wanna see another loser become famous over night because he made a youtube video over a rs update, and turn that person into a sage.

I think most of the accusations and negative attitude on this thread comes out of spite and shows how low part of the commuity can go. Most have absolutely no idea about what people got banned for, and if even TIF administrators say multiple bans were for bogus reasons, it really shows why the efficiency crowd can't exist peacefully on these forums- moderation turns a blind eye to vengeful insults on this thread, but contributing users get banned for basically nothing. There are people who got banned and had absolutely no relation to what happent later, and those users still get ridiculed, and judging by the blank letters sent out, even high TIF administration has no idea about who did what, so it's highly offensive to accuse anyone at this point.

 

This is getting dull now; from all I've skimmed over it basically seems:

The efficiency lot have got the knickers in a twist because moderators are telling them they are not allowed to be rude, derogatory and flamey towards people who post perfectly valid advice even if it is not the most efficient advice.

 

The solution I see is:

Get off yer high-horse let the mods do their jobs and accept the fact not everybody is an efficiency person. Yes you can disagree with advice or post a more efficient alternative but that does not require being rude, derogatory or flamey. All you gotta do is give you're advice and tag on the end the above advice is out-dated or incorrect because x,y,z or so and so advice works but this method is more efficient.

This situation had nothing to do with what you said in your post. Great job on missing the point entirely and yet again showing a large portion of users in negative light. You are very good at it. The efficiency community has already made extensive proposals on how to improve the H&A and Peter of TIF administration has said they are working on impementing them, so you are in no way the first who is trying to improve something.

 

As for your attitude in H&A, if you are COMPLETELY in the wrong, you will still argue for your point until the other person proves everything about your advice wrong, and after they've done that, you walk away without saying sorring for giving terrible advice or anything. If anything, your way of argueing until the horse is dead and never admitting you can be wrong is very much unhelpful for H&A.

 

It didn't help me much either when so called "Efficient players" viewed my Help and Advice topics only to spread the word, just for their own sake of "We know best". They need to learn to respect other players way of playing the game, if they want respect back.

 

And in most cases where "Efficient players" posted on my Help and Advice topics, very often they started replying with a short comment, following it with a elaborated post when i accused them of trolling.

 

Should make a rule for Help and Advice topics: If your gonna reply to a topic, make sure you elaborate/argument for or write a decent detailed post. They lacked that alot of the times. So i am glad they are leaving. They are unecessary, not important and easy replaceable.

I don't see what explaining things and giving advice has in common. As far as i can tell, if you are in the posession of the knowledge, simply stating what would be best is more than enough. Discussions about why would be part of the metagame forums. There is never a need to be an ass if someone just follows trough and gives blank advice, as that is ultimately the goal. I think it's more than fair to say that you are an extremely offensive person when asking for advice and are very slow to pick up new things. I will definitely wish TIF good luck on replacing the crowd, as i know it won't be easy(particularly if DGS leaves or even stops catering for TIF).

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If people want to leave the forums, why can't they just do so silently and quickly instead of making such a deal about it? :unsure:

 

Either make the point and move on or stay, adapt and try to influence positively.

You're accusing me of bigotry, how ironic. It's a nice attempt at argument, but your responses are facile and asinine, if not diatribe. Who's arrogant now?

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I'd agree with you koaala aside from the fact every time I have been proven wrong I apologised.

The only times I have not apologised is where nothing has been proven. Its all very well somebody saying no you are wrong, but that's not proving it.

 

Also great of you to accuse me of doing things and talking about things I made 0 comment on. I never said I was the first trying to improve something; I said the solution to THIS issue as I see it from what I've read.

Also I'm interested to see these ideas to improve H&A any links to threads? Can't say I've come across anything particularly on that issue.

 

As for Dire_Wolfs point: I think the issue is the effciency players (or at least some of them who give a bad image) have a habit of being derogatory or flamey if asked to explain their advice, or simply refuse to do it and then if debate ensues will reveal an important detail tht they culda jsut gave in answer to question like pages later. Just giving advice is good; being rude or awkward when asked to explain further is unnecessary. In some threads I've seen to advice on a topic I dunno about, posted a good intentioned question about it and been flamed in return. If people question it in order to learn its not exactly hard to just answer it and not flame them as if they are saying the advice is wrong or call them stupid for not knowing why.

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If people want to leave the forums, why can't they just do so silently and quickly instead of making such a deal about it? :unsure:

 

Either make the point and move on or stay, adapt and try to influence positively.

 

My understanding is that they offered to do just that, but it's the Tip.It administration that requested they not be so hasty and wished to negotiate. Except the negotiates turned into a disaster in themselves, leaving users feeling terribly insulted.

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I can't say i am glad that Grimy bunyip is leaving, nor do i care much. But i am VERY glad that people that are assosciated with Grimy bunyip are leaving.One of them is the biggest [wagon] on this forum.

 

Just leave the forum already :thumbup:

 

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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I can't say i am glad that Grimy bunyip is leaving, nor do i care much. But i am VERY glad that people that are assosciated with Grimy bunyip are leaving.One of them is the biggest [wagon] on this forum.

 

Just leave the forum already :thumbup:

 

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thing is, you don't even need to ask people to leave over there. Just get 20 or so people to say they don't like that person, the admins get to kick 'em out. Handy right?

 

It's a foolproof system designed to stop people getting banned for no reason.

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