The Evolution of Combat: BETA discussion

[Nash]

They DO need a cooldown on gear switching. Every other game out there has it. What keeps people from making an AHK that equips a whole new gearset with just 1 click?

[Quyneax]

They DO need a cooldown on gear switching. Every other game out there has it. What keeps people from making an AHK that equips a whole new gearset with just 1 click?

Apart from the rules... people do that already. And just because every game has it, doesn't mean RS needs it. Every other game out there doesn't have tick-based combat.

[SKKOL]

Hahaha... they are probably gonna be increasing the cap to 120 on combat skills,

yeah they said they "wouldn't do it/have no plans to." But has that been stopping them lately? After the first BXP weekend they said they had no plans for another...

then there's the Squeal, Jcoins, the new discontinued item... just sayin'

 

There's a difference between them saying they're not going to do it and they have no plans to. No plans to means it's not something they're working on. Wouldn't do means they have something against that idea. I can guarantee you that they were thinking about doing a 2nd BXP before the first one even finished. But, they needed to see how well that one fared first. The Squeal, well that... happened. Not sure what these J coins you're talking about are, or these discontinued items. But, um, holiday events have been around for years and have items you can only get at that event. I have nothing against Jagex introducing more things like these. I'd rather see people pay for the SoF for limited time items then for exp.

 

The thing is they SAID on the forums AND in clan chats after the first BXP took place that they had no plans on doing another, and a lot of people believed them, until that BTS came up that said they were doing another, and that wasn't years afterwards either.

Jcoins are what you buy spins with, microtransactions, Real money giving you an advantage over others, something they said they would NEVER do. Though to be fair is in direct relation to the squeal, so I guess technically Squeal and Jcoins count as 1 example.

I've been on RS since RSC, I know about holiday items, I guess I should have specified, the Fish mask, a new TRADEABLE discontinued item, something they said they would never do again after Santa hats, because of people selling for crazy profits and it not being in the spirit of why they were dropped, they tried untradeable stuff

(Bunny Ears and Scythe) I don't know why but after that they stopped holiday items altogether until the Yo-yo was released, which was over a year after.

(i think)

 

Honestly none of that stuff even bothers me, I've never taken RS too seriously, my stats reflect that, haha. I just think its funny when people say something will never happen because a J-mod said so, when that doesn't really mean anything anymore.

 

 

I have never heard of them saying they wouldn't be doing another BXPW and I'm willing to bet that it was due to misinterpretation of players("We have no plans atm" is just that, not "we won't be doing this")

 

The release of a new rare was YEARS after the release of the last one. Back then they might have said we are not going to do this anymore, but you cannot reasonably hold people to what they've said ages ago, when the situation has changed a lot. Same with what happened with F2P adverts. While I don't like it that much, the outrage because MMG said in 2009 they wouldn't be doing it is ridiculous.

 

And in this case, they have said that it WON'T come with this update and that there are *still* no plans for it. Yes, it might come in the future. I even think it will. But if there are no plans right now, at least not for another 6 months or so.

 

 

I personally saw a forum post by a J-mod saying they weren't planning on it (another BXP) days after it happened, though I'm sure it's long gone by now, I couldn't have been the only who saw it, especially since it wasn't even my thread. (it was one complaining about it.)

Sir Squab said he believes that they were thinking of another when they were making the first, and I do too, but I know I saw a J-mod say they weren't planning on it on the RSOF, but it seems to me that they were.

My point is... not many people expected the updates that have been happening lately, and with more and more people becoming maxed and new subscriptions becoming less common, I'm sure they will try it, the question is when, I personally see it happening very soon, it seems like combat training might get a lot faster with the EoC, if that happens and it really is balanced better, it's gotta go up, or people will stop playing faster and faster, and it's probably a lot easier to just raise the level caps than make a new skill every year, look at how many people already have 200m DG xp,

people keep getting faster and faster with the skills anyway, I dunno, maybe i'm crazy, or maybe I'm predicting it'll happen way sooner than it actually will.

But in the end, I just can't see it happening any other way.

[Nash]

They DO need a cooldown on gear switching. Every other game out there has it. What keeps people from making an AHK that equips a whole new gearset with just 1 click?

Apart from the rules... people do that already. And just because every game has it, doesn't mean RS needs it. Every other game out there doesn't have tick-based combat.

 

 

You can't always expect the rules to hold up...

 

 

"It is against the rules to bot"

 

yet we have random events... just in case.

 

 

and the tired argument that RS is different isn't worth a response.

[brunokiller]

You are saying it like doing six ways switches in one or two ticks is hard which it really isn't unless you have a crappy mouse.

[stonewall337]

They DO need a cooldown on gear switching. Every other game out there has it. What keeps people from making an AHK that equips a whole new gearset with just 1 click?

WoW doesn't. you just can't change everything in combat, except weapons and shields.

[Nash]

They DO need a cooldown on gear switching. Every other game out there has it. What keeps people from making an AHK that equips a whole new gearset with just 1 click?

WoW doesn't. you just can't change everything in combat, except weapons and shields.

 

Every other game has a mechanic in place to prevent gearswitching that would give an unfair advantage.

 

I fixed it for you :P

[Donnie]

Jagex can EASILY make it so if youve delt damage or had damage delt you cant switch equipted gear for 15 seconds.

 

Though the greater problem of meleers in d hide having the best chance at winning a fight would still be there

[Sorator]

That would make it incredibly more difficult to fight some bosses. For PvP that might be a good idea, but not PvM. And since I don't PvP, I can't say I care much about PvP-only problems, heh.

[Donnie]

That would make it incredibly more difficult to fight some bosses. For PvP that might be a good idea, but not PvM. And since I don't PvP, I can't say I care much about PvP-only problems, heh.

 

Maybe but the combat system is being radically changed, its definitely an (unconfirmed) possibility.

[Cheat]

Jagexian hypocrisy can be annoying but villifying people for hypocrisy is idiotic. Often politicians are slammed for having gone back on their decision even if they have only done so under popular demand. You campaign against someone to change their mind and then call them weak when they do?

[wioneo]

With the increasing emphasis on boosted life points Jagex seems to be taking, it is also possible that we could see an increase in constitution level.

 

I really would hate the cape tobe 139, it just doesn't look right.

140 would be a nice cap. Mainly because even numbers tend to look better.

 

Or is it just me...

 

Nope, it irk's me too. 9 is just an odd number in my opinion.

 

I agree, but I'm sure the new immunity from whatever is lvl 69 would be nice.

[Kimberly]

Hi guys,

 

I've merged the "New combat cap?" thread into the Beta discussion thread since it directly relates to the beta and whatever possible changes we'll see with that. We're trying to keep all beta discussions in one spot so information is concise and clear :thumbsup: Thanks for your help :) PM me if you have any questions

[Crossed_Body]

Every other game has a mechanic in place to prevent gearswitching that would give an unfair advantage.

 

How is it an unfair advantage if everybody has access to it?

[Urza285]

Every other game has a mechanic in place to prevent gearswitching that would give an unfair advantage.

 

How is it an unfair advantage if everybody has access to it?

Maybe he was thinking in an overpowering sense where the player with the faster twitch-clicking of switching gear would still win out like it is today.

 

Jagex stated they wanted the combat of their game to revolve around skill and use of gear to situations. They stated they are doing away with the fast twitch movements required to be efficient. In this case between pvm and pvp I can see how it might be a tricky situation, but honestly they've already made it where you can only do so many actions per game tick and there is a small buffer time between actions anyways (remember all the pvmers raging over not being able to sip brews and eat a shark in one turn?). Also if you got a slower computer that's really on you and not the game player.

 

As for having armor switches on the hotbar I am fairly certain jagex will either keep it watered down to just one action per hotbar button and still enforce the buffer time between actions on the hotbar. I would like to imagine jagex allowing us to use chain commands on the hotbar or actions linked to the use of toggle keys+button click like in WoWs macros, but that's honestly too high an expectation for jagex. For the moment until they start pushing the horizon and have reached far beyond their beta testing lets stick to simpler ideas. Just remember how log it took them to implement multiple chats.

[Omali]

They DO need a cooldown on gear switching. Every other game out there has it. What keeps people from making an AHK that equips a whole new gearset with just 1 click?

WoW doesn't. you just can't change everything in combat, except weapons and shields.

 

Every other game has a mechanic in place to prevent gearswitching that would give an unfair advantage.

 

I fixed it for you :P

 

Also untrue. Ultima Online doesn't, for one.

[Sy_Accursed]

So this weeks 'Og blog' is up and it's kinda disappointing because it doesn't tell us a huge amount of anything new.

[The Runar]

So this weeks 'Og blog' is up and it's kinda disappointing because it doesn't tell us a huge amount of anything new.

 

Except that max lifepoints will be 15k+

[Mercifull]

So this weeks 'Og blog' is up and it's kinda disappointing because it doesn't tell us a huge amount of anything new.

 

Except that max lifepoints will be 15k+

Might finally kill Jad :D

[lcchs]

So this weeks 'Og blog' is up and it's kinda disappointing because it doesn't tell us a huge amount of anything new.

 

Except that max lifepoints will be 15k+

Might finally kill Jad :D

 

Except they will probably increase jad's lifepoints or something to offset your increase health.

[Sy_Accursed]

So this weeks 'Og blog' is up and it's kinda disappointing because it doesn't tell us a huge amount of anything new.

 

Except that max lifepoints will be 15k+

Might finally kill Jad :D

 

Except they will probably increase jad's lifepoints or something to offset your increase health.

 

True Jad's max hit and lp and stuff will go up (as will all monsters) there is however and inevitability that Jad's new max hit cannot be matching the max lp since that will stem from top end equipment that is beyond his target audience (eg torva etc.) so there must be a sort of tipping point where stats and gear-wise he becomes much easier. In comparison to now where basically any gear and stats you have he can still pretty much 1 hit ko you.

 

Plus of course the action bar means healing and prayer swapping will be much easier as well.

[Jon Arcane]

There's been some talk going around although not confirmed that for melee armours at least the 'heavier sets' (platebody, platelegs, full helm, kiteshields) will offer more defensive boosts alongside better health bonuses whereas the 'lighter sets' (chainmail, skirt, helms, square shields) will give you better offensive abilities at the cost of defence.

 

I think that is bloody awesome if that does turn out right, would really bring out more variety in choosing your armour sets!

[ddaanniiellh]

So this weeks 'Og blog' is up and it's kinda disappointing because it doesn't tell us a huge amount of anything new.

 

Except that max lifepoints will be 15k+

The exact wording says: "...so life points will effectively increase by over 15 times of previous amounts for defensively geared players..."

So I don't believe that max lp would be 15k. I think it's saying the increase is going to be up to 15x the amount of current armour's lp increase. Which is still none-the-less a lot (6k lp increase if it's 15x higher than Nex armour).

[Ambler]

Can someone post the Og blog here? Unable to access the rs website at the moment. A cookie to whoever does it. <3:

[ddaanniiellh]

Can someone post the Og blog here? Unable to access the rs website at the moment. A cookie to whoever does it. <3:

 

[hide=Og's Blog]Hi,

 

In my last Og Blog, I promised Id explain a little more about the challenges we set ourselves during the Evolution of Combat development. In this blog Ill be talking about the first 3 of those challenges: making combat about skill, encouraging variety in equipment, and making it fun.

 

In my mind, the best combat systems reward a player for truly understanding the game. If its an FPS game, its about knowing your environments, likely patterns of enemy movement, and quickly being able to choose the right weapons for the job. If its an RTS game, its about efficiency and how to adapt to enemy tactics, while being smart with your troop assignments. In essence, its knowledge. Thats part of what I define as the skill of the player in modern games, knowledge IS skill. Some can be taught; most must be mastered by the user. All this is separate from the physical speed of the user, or their ability to click faster.

 

Right now, skill in RuneScape combat tends to be measured by things like how quickly you can switch between interfaces; odd features like prayer flashing; keeping your combat levels artificially low; or timing the click of when you eat food to avoid missing a hit. While those things are skilful (and I admire those players that have mastered those strange arts), none of them are about combat itself, or knowledge of combat. Theres nothing about what weapons to use and when; nothing about how to respond to your opponent in PvP - none of it relates to tactics used in real battles... and I think it should. Its often a case of being lucky, or just having the GP to buy the best equipment, which brings us nicely to our first point...

 

Encouraging Variety in Equipment

 

The general who wins a battle makes many calculations in his temple before the battle is fought.

- Sun Tzu

Mostly, you can take the best weapon or spell available to you and always do the best rates of damage. While we have factors like damage types (stab/ slash/ crush, for example), they rarely make a huge difference in combat, and are mostly selected due to the associated XP generation. We are changing that.

 

Firstly, every NPC will have specific weaknesses and strengths, reinforcing the combat triangle and genuinely making a difference which equipment and which styles of combat you use to fight them. To help you identify these strengths and weaknesses, we are adding a combat tab that shows you exactly what your target is all about. That applies to PvP and PvE combat and will show you any potions, abilities, effects, prayers and weaknesses affecting you and your opponent. Fighting NPCs will require you to take the right gear, not just rely on your standard setup. The best fighters will need to plan.

 

Secondly, several of our brand-new basic, threshold and ultimate abilities are not only bound to the method of combat youre using (melee, magic or ranged) but will have equipment requirements to use: so, defensive abilities will often require the use of a shield, or ranging abilities the use of a bow, for example.

 

Thirdly we are de-coupling XP generation from the type of weapon you are using, so youll be able to choose what sort of XP you generate rather than having it chosen for you. This means, for example, that players will be able to train strength with an abyssal whip. All the xp modes still exist, youll just be able to select which one you wish to use. We are also adding a new defensive only mode to magic.

 

Making Combat More Fun

 

We are doing several things to add more OMG moments to combat. The new ultimate abilities are - frankly awesome, and everyone in the office is amazed by what the graphics team have achieved. Its been a pleasure to see these ideas come to life: huge tidal waves cascading from the mage; explosions blasting your opponent from afar; massive aerial bombardments from the ranger; a rain of arrows pinning your target to the ground; cleaving blows from the warrior, so big that they rupture the very ground around you; or calling great destructive meteors from the sky. Theres a real plethora of choice, too, with over 20 abilities to pick from within each combat method. We are also adding critical hits to combat, to add a new dimension to damage with crit-hit splats. Overall, your rate of damage will be massively increased.

 

Of course, its not all about how hard you can hit things. Maximum life points will be raised by the armour youre wearing, so life points will effectively increase by over 15 times of previous amounts for defensively geared players, with a 10 times increase for those equipped with offense in mind. Currently, a common source of disappointment is being killed very quickly in PvP with little chance to react. With larger life pool, players will be encouraged to think tactically rather than relying on lucky, big hits.

 

Making Combat about Player Skill

 

To bring us back to the idea of gaming skill that I was discussing at the beginning of this blog, we are building a system to reward the player who makes good use of their knowledge and understanding of combat. Those players who truly master the new abilities, equipment rebalancing and target-strengths and weaknesses will find new rewards from the game not only in terms of fun, but also in treasure and progression. Players who master the system will have the best XP and GP rates available through combat.

 

Naturally, there are several aspects of the game that need rebalancing in order to achieve this sense of reward. Things like healing via food have been modified to relate more to the new and increased life points of the player; potions and prayers are being modified to allow for high-level features in the future; and massive changes are being made to encourage players to train all combat skills, including the neglected Defence skill. More information on that will follow in a later blog.

 

As mentioned previously, the action bar we are adding to the game allows the player to quickly access the features they want to use, rather than force them to navigate between tabs to find them. This means more time engaging with combat itself, not the interfaces that contain the right buttons. Players will load the 12 slot action bar with all the abilities, potions, food, prayers, spells etc they want to, and have all the features they wish to use in one place. Its really easy to set up your action bar and define your own hotkeys to access the bar, and once defined it can be locked, remaining the same until you decide to change it. Players will also have access to multiple action bars, so you can define your optimum setup for whatever situation you find yourself in, even outside of combat. The abilities we are adding give the player a wealth of choices to use in PvE and PvP combat, and the way those abilities relate to each other will bring a new sense of tactical depth to the game. Its shaping up to be truly jaw-dropping.

 

More Og-blogging next week!

 

Mod Mark (Og)

Lead Designer RuneScape[/hide]