Squeal of Fortune + Buyable Spins

[icecube]

South Korea is already looking at this? They actually consider it that important and got on it already? If so, that was fast.

 

No, they've been looking into it for a year or so. The investigation asked several large Korean developers (NCSoft, Nexon, Hanbitsoft) over these grab bags that appear in their games. If you haven't seen them, they're pretty much what Squeal of Fortune is based off of, with the exception that you can't get them through normal gameplay. You have to buy the tickets and they offer a chance at random prizes. The Games Rating Board (Think ESRB, but Government operated and mandated) is attempting to determine if these constitute gambling. Unfortunately, none of the companies being investigated (ten in all) have complied with handing over statistics as to payout percentage, claiming the data was private, likely as a desperate save because if it is determined to be gambling they will have to get rid of them.

 

Again, Jagex probably doesn't have much to lose in South Korea.

:( I spent a lot of money on a Korean game like that - and the boxes were only for (random) cosmetic items too, although tradeable and worth a fair amount in-game since not many people bought them. I eventually quit since they didn't do many updates (and they only had to transfer them from the Korean version to the Europe version), and did too many cash shop updates. I don't wanna quit RS too!

[Reztral]

I am glad that they added ways to get more spins by doing in game activities, but buying your spins doesn't seem like such a good idea.

[michel555555]

A friend of mine said Credit Card info was only saved on the very same computer you've checked to remember it. Thus being hacked wouldn't result in abuse.

 

Anyone confirm this? I only have access to one computer atm.

[Lt_Wolfe]

I want to ask TIF community a question:

Jagex banned people for RWTing. Now they are providing a RWT service themself, but it's all of sudden OK? They seem to have planned this long time ago. Slowly with Loyalty programme (a programme providing advantage over others).

 

 

And what's point of PLAYING Runescape now? What is "in spirit" of the game? Jagex told us Effigies is not in spirit of game because you should DO Runecrafting to get it leveled up. And a Mod said "If you don't like Runecrafting, go do a other skill".

 

Now you can PROBABLY level your skills fastest way without playing Runescape. By having a full time job, and use part of money on spins. You would probably spend more tims grinding than if you worked irl.

Is this in spirit of the game? No.

Is this how a game should be ? No.

 

Jagex has lied to Runescape players about microtransaction. They banned people for it, now they are doing it themself.

You shouln't accept this.

 

Investors are the majority owners of Runescape. Guess what that means.

As sad as it is, this has actually happened before. Way back when, I created a web tool that allowed people to play RS in a frame, and it allowed for quick world switching. I was banned for it. Not a few months later, they allowed it because Swift Kit was doing it, and it was popular. Then they released the World Change screen on the lobby. My character still isn't unbanned. Thankfully they banned the wrong character of mine, and banned the one that the tool was named after, and not my original character, but still. Point stands that they won't unban people they banned for things that were illegal at the time but have since become legal. They don't do retroactive stuff in that regard.

[xInfinityx]

South Korea is already looking at this? They actually consider it that important and got on it already? If so, that was fast.

No, they've been looking into it for a year or so. The investigation asked several large Korean developers (NCSoft, Nexon, Hanbitsoft) over these grab bags that appear in their games. If you haven't seen them, they're pretty much what Squeal of Fortune is based off of, with the exception that you can't get them through normal gameplay. You have to buy the tickets and they offer a chance at random prizes. The Games Rating Board (Think ESRB, but Government operated and mandated) is attempting to determine if these constitute gambling. Unfortunately, none of the companies being investigated (ten in all) have complied with handing over statistics as to payout percentage, claiming the data was private, likely as a desperate save because if it is determined to be gambling they will have to get rid of them.

Again, Jagex probably doesn't have much to lose in South Korea.

:( I spent a lot of money on a Korean game like that - and the boxes were only for (random) cosmetic items too, although tradeable and worth a fair amount in-game since not many people bought them. I eventually quit since they didn't do many updates (and they only had to transfer them from the Korean version to the Europe version), and did too many cash shop updates. I don't wanna quit RS too!

I too, have had my fair share of Cash Shop games to (aka F2PNOTREALLYLOL-Korean Games)

 

The main difference between the South Korean Cash Shop Games/Chinese Cash Shop Games is that, they all pretty much contained cosmetic items or things that did not improve the gameplay in a certain way other than for some exceptions a different looking mount. (which would otherwise take like 1 day or so of grind to get)

 

However Runescape is quite unique since it's maingoal is the grinding and the stats, most MMO's out there does not center around 'Stats' as heavily as Runescape does. Ruin the way people get stats, means to me; is ruining the entire game.

 

If the same thing would happen in some other MMO, or some Korean Cash Shop game, it wouldn't have as big impact as it has here. Frankly I do not even think that, that many ppl would even care. (Epix Anyone???)

[Golvellius]

Of course this is legal, I mean look at the shit on Wall Street.

Thats legal.

Just call this investing in runescape.

Just put some bank notes of commodity items off the GE on squeel's wheel.

You can make it hoarder friendly by not even making the user take posession of the items for 360 days.

Heck just add some good investing/gambling tools, like the option to bet against or for the future value of GE commodities.

Add user friendly buttons like sell short.

You don't even have to be creative, it's already been done and redone in small more obescure pieces, just contact a major investment firm. :idea:

[Jaffy1]

So I had some time to spare and looked into the law aspect in response to Mod Matt K's statement.

 

Everything we do abides by all the necessary laws so each person will be protected by the laws of their land.

 

According to this article on my government's site any online "game of chance" is illegal unless a licence has been issued to the organisation hosting said game of chance.

 

A game of chance is defined as, and I quote, "Een spel is een kansspel als spelers een prijs kunnen winnen en geen overwegende invloed hebben op het spel." - In English: "A game is a game of chance when players can win a prize and do not have a predominant influence on said game."

 

The Squeal of Fortune fits this definition (in my view anyway) because, even though we always win 'a prize' - players do not have any influence on the game. Though the law is not very specific here, always winning 'a prize' - if Jagex interprets an empty bucket as such - still means the player can win a prize; they just do not know which one. Just like Deal or no Deal is considered a game of chance, while the lowest prize to be won there still is worth something (€0.01 iirc).

 

The law also specifies several times that it is illegal for those who have been issued a licence (in the unlikely event that Jagex somehow managed to get one), they are prohibited from offering games of chance to those below the age of 18.

 

 

 

With that in mind, how is it legal?

 

Actual Jmod quote for reference: http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/32/sofp.png

Game of chance definition: http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/kansspelen-en-kansspelbelasting/soorten-kansspelen

 

 

(Slightly off-topic):

[hide=Howlin's quote of Tim's reply to my earlier post]

Lolwat. That's like saying Tip.It staff can start abusing the rest of the people around here, because according to that logic we're above the rules and everyone else isn't. It is utterly and completely disrespectful and hypocritical to uphold double standards.

But you do. :twss:

Two words. Prove it!

(Don't worry I got your back mistress Jaffy ma'am. ;))

[/hide]

<3:

[sees_all1]

Of course this is legal, I mean look at the shit on Wall Street.

Thats legal.

Just call this investing in runescape.

Just put some bank notes of commodity items off the GE on squeel's wheel.

You can make it hoarder friendly by not even making the user take posession of the items for 360 days.

Heck just add some good investing/gambling tools, like the option to bet against or for the future value of GE commodities.

Add user friendly buttons like sell short.

You don't even have to be creative, it's already been done and redone in small more obescure pieces, just contact a major investment firm. :idea:

#-o

[Mercifull]

You know what? I don't give a shit if it's technically legal. Its morally abhorrent!

[Vezon Dash]

You know what? I don't give a shit if it's technically legal. Its morally abhorrent!

 

Where do morals come into this?

[Jonanananas]

You know what? I don't give a shit if it's technically legal. Its morally abhorrent!

 

Where do morals come into this?

 

That Jagex shouldn't do this, even if it really is legal?

[Turnpike]

Mfw.

[Den]

r0armonster (@HLF_r0ar)

@Runescape Does 800 pages of hate on the SoF recent update thread seem like we like the update? Just curious.

 

Runescape (@Runescape)

@HLF_r0ar You are not wrong. But the forums do not necessarily represent all of the players. We need to look at the players as a whole.

 

If we rant long enough, they might crack! (Or what they most likely will do, ignore it.)

[Jonanananas]

r0armonster (@HLF_r0ar)

@Runescape Does 800 pages of hate on the SoF recent update thread seem like we like the update? Just curious.

 

Runescape (@Runescape)

@HLF_r0ar You are not wrong. But the forums do not necessarily represent all of the players. We need to look at the players as a whole.

 

The issue with this is....their way of "looking at the players as a whole" is probably seeing how many people buy this. They say "Oh look, it's actually quite many, so it can't be that bad". I wouldn't be surprised if they used this as a justification.

[Auror]

r0armonster (@HLF_r0ar)

@Runescape Does 800 pages of hate on the SoF recent update thread seem like we like the update? Just curious.

 

Runescape (@Runescape)

@HLF_r0ar You are not wrong. But the forums do not necessarily represent all of the players. We need to look at the players as a whole.

 

If we rant long enough, they might crack! (Or what they most likely will do, ignore it.)

 

 

The J Mod made it pretty clear there; You can post over 9000 pages of Hate-threads in the forums, they will say "The Forums do not represent the whole player base, so we are not going to change anything."

[Ts_Stormrage]

Question; when buying additional spins... Do you even get a receipt? Email confirmation?

[J35u5_M4]

Considering they don't even ask for any CC details if they're already saved, I don't think you get confirmation email. But I do think you get a receipt, kinda like the ones you get when you use a members card (This is wild guessing though)

[DarkDude]

Question; when buying additional spins... Do you even get a receipt? Email confirmation?

 

Yes you do.

 

Although mine went straight into my spam folder (GMail) so imagine that'll happen to a bunch of people too.

 

Thank you for your order.

 

Your payment has been authorised and is currently being processed by Global Collect, on behalf of Jagex Limited.

 

We hope you enjoy your 20 Spins + 5 free bonus Spins (25 Total Spins) purchase. Jagex Limited are committed to producing regular and high quality game updates, offering great gameplay and deep game experiences on a monthly basis.

Shopper Information:

Player Name: DarkDude

E-mail Address: REMOVED

Billing Address: REMOVED

United Kingdom

Order Summary:

Transaction ID: REMOVED

Authorisation Date/Time: 02-Apr-2012 (Time Removed)

Product Description: 20 Spins + 5 free bonus Spins (25 Total Spins)

Total: GBP 6.99

 

What is this purchase for?

 

This purchase is a one-off payment for 20 Spins + 5 free bonus Spins (25 Total Spins).

Enquiries

 

If you have any questions about your order, please email Jagex Limited at: [email protected], with the transaction details listed above.

 

To find out more about how your transaction was processed, visit Global Collect's Frequently Asked Questions at:

http://www.globalcollect.com/consumers-processing-payment-status/

 

Thank you for shopping with Jagex Limited.

[BiJay]

So I had some time to spare and looked into the law aspect in response to Mod Matt K's statement.

 

Everything we do abides by all the necessary laws so each person will be protected by the laws of their land.

 

According to this article on my government's site any online "game of chance" is illegal unless a licence has been issued to the organisation hosting said game of chance.

 

A game of chance is defined as, and I quote, "Een spel is een kansspel als spelers een prijs kunnen winnen en geen overwegende invloed hebben op het spel." - In English: "A game is a game of chance when players can win a prize and do not have a predominant influence on said game."

 

The Squeal of Fortune fits this definition (in my view anyway) because, even though we always win 'a prize' - players do not have any influence on the game. Though the law is not very specific here, always winning 'a prize' - if Jagex interprets an empty bucket as such - still means the player can win a prize; they just do not know which one. Just like Deal or no Deal is considered a game of chance, while the lowest prize to be won there still is worth something (0.01 iirc).

 

The law also specifies several times that it is illegal for those who have been issued a licence (in the unlikely event that Jagex somehow managed to get one), they are prohibited from offering games of chance to those below the age of 18.

 

 

 

With that in mind, how is it legal?

 

Actual Jmod quote for reference: http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/32/sofp.png

Game of chance definition: http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/kansspelen-en-kansspelbelasting/soorten-kansspelen

I think it's not that easy, e.g. define a prize. Is flipping a coin with my friend to decide who takes the pretty girl also a game of chance and we need a license for it? If that prize has to be of monetary value, buyable spins are not a game of chance as those virtual goods don't have a specific worth. I don't understand dutch, so can't red into it.

[Ts_Stormrage]

TY Darkdude

[Glodenox]

You know what? I don't give a shit if it's technically legal. Its morally abhorrent!

This.

 

I don't care whether or not it's called gambling, whether it's legal or not... I just can't understand how they don't feel bad encouraging younger people to spend money to participate in a game of chance.

[Jaffy1]

[hide]

So I had some time to spare and looked into the law aspect in response to Mod Matt K's statement.

 

Everything we do abides by all the necessary laws so each person will be protected by the laws of their land.

 

According to this article on my government's site any online "game of chance" is illegal unless a licence has been issued to the organisation hosting said game of chance.

 

A game of chance is defined as, and I quote, "Een spel is een kansspel als spelers een prijs kunnen winnen en geen overwegende invloed hebben op het spel." - In English: "A game is a game of chance when players can win a prize and do not have a predominant influence on said game."

 

The Squeal of Fortune fits this definition (in my view anyway) because, even though we always win 'a prize' - players do not have any influence on the game. Though the law is not very specific here, always winning 'a prize' - if Jagex interprets an empty bucket as such - still means the player can win a prize; they just do not know which one. Just like Deal or no Deal is considered a game of chance, while the lowest prize to be won there still is worth something (€0.01 iirc).

 

The law also specifies several times that it is illegal for those who have been issued a licence (in the unlikely event that Jagex somehow managed to get one), they are prohibited from offering games of chance to those below the age of 18.

 

 

 

With that in mind, how is it legal?

 

Actual Jmod quote for reference: http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/32/sofp.png

Game of chance definition: http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/kansspelen-en-kansspelbelasting/soorten-kansspelen

[/hide]

I think it's not that easy, e.g. define a prize. Is flipping a coin with my friend to decide who takes the pretty girl also a game of chance and we need a license for it? If that prize has to be of monetary value, buyable spins are not a game of chance as those virtual goods don't have a specific worth. I don't understand dutch, so can't red into it.

 

Prize isn't defined through law, so is open to interpretation by judges. Flipping a coin with a friend for that purpose probably wouldn't fit the description since people cannot be given as a prize. The context also suggests the person issuing the chance to be a company or organisation. This is, for example, why the company I work for had to get a license to have a few promotional bingo weeks with prizes.

 

But yeah, I'm no expert on law so am probably simplifying things. :P

[The_Fray]

After my initial feelings of outrage, I have rethought my position on this update. While I would have preferred that Jagex not have gone this way, I realize that it is their choice which direction they wish to steer this game. Sure there are now players who can use micro transactions to get ahead in the game but that has little to no effect on my own game play. I will continue to proceed playing this game as I still enjoy it and Jagex's decision to implement this update does not change that.

[sees_all1]

After my initial feelings of outrage, I have rethought my position on this update. While I would have preferred that Jagex not have gone this way, I realize that it is their choice which direction they wish to steer this game. Sure there are now players who can use micro transactions to get ahead in the game but that has little to no effect on my own game play. I will continue to proceed playing this game as I still enjoy it and Jagex's decision to implement this update does not change that.

I think they're hypocritical, see my siggy.

[Carl]

The statements in your signature were from...2009? Things have changed since then. Majority of Jagex being owned by investors now, so the basis before doesn't apply to now at all.